I sent him an e-mail... Thanks!
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Rage, thanks for that interesting analysis on the steps. It clarifies some things...
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Dear Zev, I believe you. No need to call me (although I'd love to hear from you!)
You seem to have gone through a lot and have a lot to share, and we are grateful that you have come to our forum to inspire us!
(Wow. After all that despair in your post, I was so relieved to read that someone DID end up marrying you 15 years ago. B"H!! :D)
Of-course the 12-Steps were much less known 20 years ago, and there wasn't even an idea of suing the 12-Steps for lust addiction until about that time... So it's truly inspiring to hear how you broke free through sheer will-power and determination to "fix yourself". Please share with us as much as you can; we are all thirsty to hear tips from those who have been there and found a way out, no matter HOW they did it! GYE has no agenda to push the 12-Steps. We are only concerned that people don't "bash it" over here, as you clearly understand.
Please keep sharing... Perhaps you can show us, step by step, what attitudes you used and developed over time to help you stay clean.
For one, you wrote that you developed an attitude that “I can become a person that does not have these struggles”. Wow. How did you come to believe this so deeply?
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Zev, I apologize for thinking you were someone else in disguise. Please continue to share with us, your story is truly an inspiration.
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gotta love that rage ;D Nice to hear from you... Maybe stick around for a while until you get fed up with GYE again 
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By the way Zev, I suggest you change the name of this thread to "I am powerless" AND "I can do it when I know that I need Hashem's help" since they are one and the same thing, and there is no disagreement here. I am getting a sneaking suspicion that Zev is really Tomim (or YMG). And even if he isn't, it is probably a close friend of Tomim's that he invited to post on the forum. If so, we welcome Zev with open arms. [If Zev is not Tomim and he honestly wants to share what worked for him to help others, we ask him to please call us on our hotline at 646-600-8100.] I have no problem when people share what works for them, but Tomim (YMG) seems to have a clear agenda today of delegitimize the 12-Steps as "treif" and anti-Torah. He feels it is his "achrayus" to save people from (in his words) trading "one evil for another" and he keeps finding new and creative ways to wage his "Holy War". However, since the 12-Steps help - and have helped - thousands of Yidden (and millions of people throughout the world), and since we have the backing of the Gedolim on this issue (even the biggest Kana'im like Rav Avraham Schorr and the Sqverrer Rebbe, not to mention Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and many other Gedolim, send people to 12-Step groups when nothing else has worked), we will not tolerate 12-step deligitamization on this forum. Indeed the concept of "powerless" is not for everyone. No one can tell you that you are "powerless". (See Dov's reply over here). It is something that only a person himself may feel, after honestly looking at his track record and seeing how many things he has tried over time, to no avail. And indeed, GYE suggests many different approaches before suggesting that someone try the 12-step approach. We have a document called " GYE in a Nutshell" that outlines 8 different levels of this struggle/addiction, and only in Level 5-6 do we suggest the 12-Step approach. If Zev is not Tomim, we invite him to please share what worked for him, but to please refrain from comments like "I shudder to think where I would be today had I been told 21 years ago that I am powerless" (sounds suspiciously like Tomim) even though it is clear that this is out of context and making it sound as if the 12-Steps have an agenda to make people fall and give up hope. Thank you
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zev_17_years wrote on 29 Aug 2011 23:46:
The intent of my posting was to mechazek people that if you truly do all four steps, you will not “start lusting”. Period. So while it is certainly correct that “starting to lust” will “awaken all the old desires and likely feel out of control”, in practical terms, it is immaterial, since, having worked out the underlying issues, (which can take a good number of years going through a very, very painful, process of extreme self-honesty and understanding), one will never arrive at the point of possibility to “start lusting”. (If one does, it merely means that they have not really “worked it out” yet.) I shudder to think where I would be today had I been told 21 years ago that my problem can never be permanently fixed.
The 12-Steps are ideal for the world at large where a recovering addict “taking the first drink” of lust is a real possibility. Many in our community may have to take this path, but please, let us not cripple those who can do better – even if it does not conform to our previous understanding. The achrayus is too huge. And there is, Boruch Hashem, living proof from a former addict of 13 years.
GYE is a wonderful site, doing incredible work serving as a chizuk to so many hundreds – if not thousands of individuals. It goes without saying that those in charge have an enormous zechus. I do not struggle with these issues, but I feel a sense of achrayus. How can I not tell people that it really can be done…. That you can really get to the point where you will not simply "stay sober" but there won’t be the possibility of lusting. (Of course, regular normal shmiras anyaim struggles are for life…)
Zev, this is truly amazing. It is amazing that you claim you have reached a point where you don't ever begin to lust, and "where there won’t be the possibility of lusting". That is truly an incredible claim. Even the greatest Tana'im were shown that they have "the possibility of lusting" when they thought that they no longer had... But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean under normal circumstances ... Anyway, we would all be grateful if you would share with us more about your 4 step process and how to get there. But as you yourself wrote "it can take a good number of years going through a very, very painful, process of extreme self-honesty and understanding". Wow, that doesn't sound easy. Especially to do that on your own without group support. Also, you claim it took a "Huge Crisis" to turn your life around. So based on these 4 points (1) that it can take a number of years (2) it takes going through a very, very painful, process (3) there's no group support (4) in your case it took having been shaken up by a "Huge Crisis" - if it takes all that, I wonder how many people here on GYE will be able to follow your approach. Still, we'd be happy to hear what you've learned, and how you think that we can get there. Please point us the way, by all means. Yasher Koach
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zev_17_years wrote on 28 Aug 2011 20:56:
l’Maan Hashem, in response to the words of the last reply: "YOU ARE POWERLESS", Chas v’Sholom! I don’t even want to think where I would be today were I to have been told this 21 years ago.
Does that mean that I think we can do this on our own without Hashem? No, definitely not. This is not different than any other aspect of our lives. We need Hashem’s assistance for everything. I ask Hashem to help me constantly in both ruchniyus and gashmiyus endeavors. I have been doing this for many, many years. And I mean real tefilah – not just mouthing words, not just going through some ritual. Speaking to Hashem in English – really asking Him for help. And genuinely believing that I really need His help. But telling someone “You are powerless” will certainly lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Great story. Thanks for sharing... We'd love to hear more (one day). I think you are misunderstanding how the word "powerlessness" is used on this site and in the 12-Steps. It obviously doesn't mean powerless in the way you think. If it did, what help would that be for anyone? Do you think the 12-Step groups are trying to get people to fall by being "self-fulfilling prophecies"? If so, they wouldn't have any success, would they? So first we need to admit that there is obviously a misunderstanding of how this word is being used. All they mean by "powerless" is two things, which I believe you will also agree with. Powerless means: 1) because we have ingrained our brains with these desires (and self-medicating) for so many years, the pathways are there - and may be there for life. We can close the door on these pathways, but the moment we start opening the door again (taking the first drink), we may find ourselves back at square one. So powerlessness doesn't mean we can't change, it just means we are powerless over lust. If we start lusting, we will awaken all the old desires and likely feel out-of-control. 2) And Powerless means like you said, that without Hashem we can't do it. We need his help all the time, and true tefilla, like you do, is priceless. Keep up the good work!
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zev_17_years wrote on 28 Aug 2011 22:41:
I am scared to think where I would be today if I would have viewed myself 21 years ago as being "powerless" and that I cannot overcome my "addiction" but only "control" it.
Great story. Thanks for sharing... We'd love to hear more (one day). I think you are misunderstanding how the word "powerlessness" is used on this site and in the 12-Steps. It obviously doesn't mean powerless in the way you think. If it did, what help would that be for anyone? Do you think the 12-Step groups are trying to get people to fall by being "self-fulfilling prophecies"? If so, they wouldn't have any success, would they? So first we need to admit that there is obviously a misunderstanding of how this word is being used. All they mean by "powerless" is two things, which I believe you will also agree with. Powerless means: 1) because we have ingrained our brains with these desires (and self-medicating) for so many years, the pathways are there - and may be there for life. We can close the door on these pathways, but the moment we start opening the door again (taking the first drink), we may find ourselves back at square one. So powerlessness doesn't mean we can't change, it just means we are powerless over lust. If we start lusting, we will awaken all the old desires and likely feel out-of-control. 2) And Powerless means like you said, that without Hashem we can't do it.
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