wait! i left out the most important part of posting on gye! (for me)
this is all my (different dock-see above)opinion.

Dov says another great (in my opinion) point: if these guys actually, truly, really, honestly believe that this is the worst sin in the world, they wouldn't do it. They'd find some other addiction to get involved with. Otherwise, they are crock full of sh*t.

If one, as a prerequisite to masturbatin', would be compelled to steal, say lashon hara, punch someone in the face, eat milchigs twenty minutes after fleishigs ( God forbid), they wouldn't do it. Why?

cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:25:

i respect you tremendously cords.
not that that makes a diff to anyone.
but i believe this qoute is not addressing what i said.
all right.
almost.
(i wasnt quoted so i cant say it was intended to either).
This is actually dragging me into the area that i didnt want to go in. 
the klausenberger rebbe zt"l, (in his collected shiurim chumash rashi-''shefa chaim), brings exactly this idea as the reason why it IS possible to do teshuva for us.
because we dont really relate to the choimer of this sin. and even if we intellectually KNOW that its the WORST sin (yeah the whole deal) we still dont understand it (or feel it) im pretty sure he says thats why er and onan were punished with misah min hashomayim
(something unmatched, that the pusuk immediately describes the punishment unlike any other sin in the torah including murder-almost like the proverbial ''lightning bolt'') is because they understood the gravity of the sin. 
​obviously tzaddikim in tanach and their actual nisyonos are beyond our comprehension and thier sins are relative to thier high levels (no one should think they were just low individuals, chas v'shalom. but regardless it is written for us to learn from on our level as well) 
but all that has NOTHING to do with that it IS indeed the worst sin in the torah. 
​perhaps we are judged (more) leniently because of the reasons i mentioned above. but the actual gravity of the sin for its own (value?) remains. there is more to go into including the moreh heter aspect but i think this suffices.
by the way have a great shabbos everyone! and yom tov!  
p.s. as i am editing, at the risk of being disingenuous, i just realized that nadav and avihu were also immediately punished for thier chet. i believe that its different over there but i dont want to debate that now and i think its off topic. maybe another time. 

cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:25:

Because all sins are not on his to do list.

Tzvi5 wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:45:

You missed the point (and perhaps I wasn't clear in the pronoun). If that (the requirements I laid out) was the prerequisite, they wouldn't do it (the masturbation).

I personally enjoy tefilas zakai ( despite having struggled with destructive guilt for much of my journey) 
1st of all it's so relatable ,I dont need to be focused and have researched to understand the proper pirush like so mmanyof the othertefilas that are more abstract to a simple mind.
2nd it feels good to admit to what I did, similar to other methods of recovery where you need to admit .

higher wrote on 17 Oct 2019 17:21:

Maybe someone wrote this already, the meforshim on shilchon aruch write that it is lav davka, since it says in sefer chasidim that one should masturbate if he is at risk of doing the act with a nidah or erva.

I was thinking that if that's the case, then maybe if someone is at the risk of looking at porn,  which one could argue is a more serious aveira, he should rather masturbate. I think this is a serious shaila which should be presented to a more harah.

This is in response to mggsbms:
not sure if this is a machlokes and the kitzur is paskeining (based on the stimas haloshon) either way its severity is very special thats lchol hadeos. i will bln look up the meforshim on shulchan aruch. 
thanks.
also, is this talking about someone that is going to masterbate anyway? (in terms of motzi zera. what does that mean ''hes at risk of doing it with an erva or nida'' and if so, obviously its better to do it outside then inside a nida...no?)
(no, no one mentioned this before and i appreciate the direct response.)

I believe that “heter” is only when the person is at risk of an Issur Kareis. I don’t think porn falls into that category.

sleepy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 17:59:

whats ''it''? the dov qoute? it was. see above. if ''it'' means what i said (about mz''l being the worst sin- )mggsbms, (say that 3x fast), (i think), addressed it.

This thought provoking conversation gave me the push to look up a few of Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal's tshuvos regarding hotzaos zera. He writes  that the terminology used by Chazal is "lav davka", however he sharply points out that it is an issur d'oraisa, contrary to what some would like to assume. He also says there is an added issur when it is done by hand (as opposed to by hirhur), and even in the case of medical need where there may be heterim given to collect zera, he writes emphatically that it should not be done by hand..... He also refers to hotzoas zera as an issur chamur.

I would be curious what a posek would say regarding "looking the other way" about masturbation, if by doing so one can break the pornography habit (which for many is more permanently damaging to their image of women, can destroy their marriage, can chas v'shalom lead to "the next step", and creates more long term addictive issues). There are therapists who use such a mehalech successfully, and eventually deal with the masturbation too. They claim rabbonim have permitted this, but I am not privy to who those rabbonim are.

Regarding Dov's comment. I assume whoever is upset by it does not know Dov or his style. I am sure he was not chalila questioning Chazal or the Kitzur. He is an ehrliche fellow who believes in Torah and that it may not be muchlefes. His very blunt challenging approach makes one take a real good look at himself and convinces him to stop hiding behind facades of frumkeit and belief. He wants to know if YOU really understand and accept what Chazal mean. So all he is asking how do you reconcile the fact you would not dream of chalila murdering a child, yet you do (or did) consider masturbating which you supposedly believe is worse. I apologize Dov if I misrepresented you, and I apologize to anyone that finds anything I wrote offensive.

plz see bold. did i miss something? isnt that more or less every aveirah btw? how can u do it if u know its wrong? ruach shtus, moreh heter no? maybe even a therapy-like moreh heter! i wasnt responding to dov directly see above and i assumed that this conversation of why a person would still do it is self understood. in regards to the teshuva of rav moshe, i have not seen it in a while, but doesnt he actually say that in terms of teshuva-its from the easier aveiros to do teshuva on? i dont remember. 
now just to preempt those that will jump on this and say that how can it be so chumur if its the easiest to do teshuva on- i think you have to bring a proof that the spiritual implications of an aveirah and the teshuva process have to be in sync. i dont see that as difficult to understand. the spiritual implications have nothing to do with rav moshes teshuva btw, and that was more or less the discussion.
it would be lovely if we could internalize all the musur and knowledge that we know about aveiros. then wed never sin and all be big tzaddikim. sadly, by most of us, thats not the case. still striving though...

the last post was in response to hhm's post above.
i had trouble (stay outta this...) editing my response so im gonna add something here even though it belongs there.
i dont think i was ever choshesh that dov or cords believe in being machlif the torah. i dont know dov, but i assume hes an ehrliche person. (i dont know cords either but i conversed with him enough to assume the same.) i was just saying that since theres alot of talk about the zohar etc. that anything that sounds like the zohar is right away ''discarded'' as being kabbalah and we dont understand it. i was just saying that to do that to the kittzur is wrong. regarding the real intention of the dov qoute-i believe i addressed that above. 
p.s. this discussion got carried away with some fine technical points about the ''exact'' severity of the sin of mz''l
to sum up where this thread started there seem to be three conclusions.
1. mz''l is front and center in tefilas zakkah because of its severity (and everyone agrees that its especially severe) even if it wasnt so common in ''those days'' 
2. there is no solid ground on which to say that in previous doros mz''l was common (or that ''cheating was rampant'')
3. the internet definitely made the situation worse  

higher wrote on 23 Oct 2019 01:19:

This is quite some thread!!! Lots of good solid Torah and ideas to chew on. Trouble, as always, has kicked up some good questions. 

In relation to number 2 in the above quote, there are many more Teshuvos about these sorts of the things than we would think. I remember once discussing these inyonim with a rebbe of mine and he was metzayin me the noda biyehuda who has several teshuvos on this, some of which would be more than just triggers for people here!! 

In relation to troubles question about what previous doros looked at, I note that IMHO many people's vision of the past of very wrong. Go to a museum with old photos and you will see what women used to wear. it was the Victorians that made everyone against sex, but before that, people (Goyim) were much more open than the current version of history says. Several English kings were openly homosexual and the number of mistresses they had would have had most people exhausted! The hamoin am married young because they had sex young and got pregnant young. Prositiutation was rampant (as it is now). These are, of course, assertions, but I like to think I know a little about these things, so take it as you wish. 

Let's face it, masturbation is one of the rare aveiros that actually has a storyline in the torah! There aren't any about gid hanoshe that I know of! (I know chazal say Yosef and his borthers argued about aiver min hachai but i'm talking about mefurash in the torah.  

bego wrote on 23 Oct 2019 13:54:

Bego for president!

I had such pleasure reading this post, your spelling mistakes didn't even bother me.

Can you message me please those mareh mekomos from the noda beyehudah?

Thanks much