so, I said the parenthesis in zakkah yesterday - several times. the first time, before yk actually started, I was a bit distracted and I skipped over it. heck, I never actually "did it." I mean, it was there for the taking, but for some reason I held back. I even told her about those damned parenthesis! she understood. but then once yk got rolling, and I had the opportunity to say it several more times, I actually said those words. I told God and myself that it really made little difference. yes, the frummies and the midrash quoters will spew that stuff about actual cohabitation with an idolatress, a gentile woman! and even one who is not your actual partner. I am actually reminded now that she was in fact Jewish, a bas mitzvah, and all. got called to the Torah, wow! but I reasoned that this justification crap was going too far. you think my wife would go for the technicality that there wasn't penetration!? bottom line, I was too close for comfort, I mean it was comfortable and more, but it's not a position I wanna be found in. I certainly don't wanna be caught that way, but besides that, I'd rather not even entertain that possibility, although I actually found those thoughts slipping in several times throughout the day. am I being clear? I hope so.

I'd like to make a second half post to this and that will be about the zakkah in general. why all the women, Keri, etc. talk? but I'm running outta time now. sorry for the non-capitalization. my notes app doesn't do that for some reason.

Trouble wrote on 10 Oct 2019 14:24:

my second half...   what's up with all this looking at women business? this was before the advent of the internet. hell, Larry Flynt wasn't even conceived yet. porn!? tank tops, thongs and bikinis? the women were dressed better than today's men. men wear tighter and shorter pants than the women of yesteryear. was there even a chance of observing a glimpse of skin centuries ago? what were they all looking at? did they need an asifah in the Vilna ghetto that the men should walk on the other side of the city? what were they fantasizing about? I thought all the experts told us that porn is ruining our marriages with false expectations. these guys were erect every other day and they never saw a centerfold in their lives!

and what's up with only the men? the women never got the hots for those young studs!? when did that start? is it an abnormality of the new generation? why don't they need to cry for masturbating under their covers? and dare I venture into controversial areas. what happened with all the homosexuals? did they show up for tefillas zakkah? were they disinvited? were they so frowned upon that they weren't even allowed into the synagogue?

several conclusions from this perverted lowlife:

1. it's not the internet, it's us!
2. it ain't the internet, so cut it out with the filters (maybe).
3. women didn't masturbate.
4. men didn't look at other men ( as a rule).
5. cheating was rampant.
6. unless you're majorly addicted, just wait for zakkah.
7. let me have it, pile on!

Oh, and once I offended many of you, I might as well offend the remaining few. I now understand why chabad doesn't say zakkah. They don't look at other women or men. That's why there are so relatively few lubavitchers on this site. That gene wasn't passed onto them. God bless them!

Regarding the above, I'm not joking.

I thank Reb higher for our discussion in the chat; he agrees with me.

Trouble wrote on 17 Oct 2019 00:14:

He agrees that I'm nuts!

Trouble wrote on 16 Oct 2019 23:12:

Trouble does bring up some valid points. We might not like the way he spells 'em out, but they do need to be addressed and cannot simply be dismissed. I, sadly, will not be that guy. He does make certain assumptions which are just that - assumptions, not facts. He cannot deny that there is a gravity to these actions although they might have been rampant. And, obviously, the internet generation has made this entire issue so much more prevalent, for everyone.

One thing Iwould say about Trouble is that hes very savvy at marketing (Maybe hes behind the success of the recent campaign..)

Regarding 2 evan if it's me not the internet why give myself a destructive tool..its been debated alot out here and it seems that the majority lean towards protecting yourself , dont forget unfiltered net led many of us to gyes door...

Mr. Trouble, I took a look at that tefillah again now and I hear/see where your comin' from, but I have one question: if you are indeed correct, why, when it says: בראת בי ידים etc., and then it says what he did wrong with them, why doesn't it specify masturbation there? It can be included in משמושים של איסור, but there is a laundry list of what he did improperly with his hands, such as hittin' his fellow and handlin' muktzah, but no masturbation. If it was indeed rampant, why the omission?

cordnoy wrote on 17 Oct 2019 01:36:

listen trouble brought up private chat so i will as well. i just want to add 1 little point in terms of the gravity of this sin (masterbating).
before i do that i want to make a disclaimer to all the readers that throughout the doros, every gadol that has written about this topic has stated it IS possible to do teshuvah on this aveirah. so no one get yiush. the following is technical for the most part.
i related to trouble how even if this sin wasnt prevalent in earlier doros, its such a big aveirah that it warrents being front and center in tefillas zakkah. (there are also many bechinos to this aveirah but im not getting into that) to support myself i said over the famous zohar saying how its there isnt teshuva for such an aveirah (again, remember the above.) mr. trouble seemed to be unimpressed with my bringing of the source. i am unsure if it was because of my lack of bekius in zohar, my lack of understanding in zohar, or my lack of understanding in general, or all 3.(which are true btw) regardless, i found something in the kitzur shulchan aruch written for simple jews like me. so here goes. (excuse my poor lashon kodesh)
''it is forbidden to emit semen in vain and this sin is worse then ALL of the sins of the torah.'' etc. see there (siman 151) as he is mayrech. he also brings various tikkunim there.
sound pretty darn harsh, no?
so yeah-no proof from zakkah that this was prevalent.
the fact that it was done-at all-is deserving enough.

Higher: ''it is forbidden to emit semen in vain and this sin is worse then ALL of the sins of the torah.'' etc. see there (siman 151) as he is mayrech.

Quotin' dov: if one is babysittin' eight kids in a basement and he strangles them all dead, is he a worse fellow that the guy who masturbated eight times into a magazine?

yea i was struggling with that myself.
i agree. (that...)
could be that our ''logic'' and the reality dont always see eye to eye. (this isnt a response to dov as i never heard this from him. its a response to the general mehalach of disagreeing with a sefer written for the simplest of the simple like the kittzur cuz we dont understand. heck, when we come to olam haba and see whats going on a bit, we might say olam hufuch to alot of things.)
complaints can be filed to the kitzur shulchan aruch.
p.s. i actually have a more direct response and i believe that the above quote has nothing to do with the kitzzur (for starters i was talking about the actual gravity of the sin and not the ''fellow'') but its completely irrelevant. the above is the fundamental response. (my arrogant opinion)

cordnoy wrote on 17 Oct 2019 17:33:

Tzvi5 wrote on 18 Oct 2019 02:52:

i didnt know the reishes chochma. thanks. the kitzur does sound very general and it could be thats pshat. ayin shum he mentions that its doimeh to murder almost as an afterthought. but his opening statement is that its worse then all.
in general i think this whole argument is about playing on peoples emotions and not much else. we know the torah is true. we may not be comfortable with the facts that it says-but its true. we may have a hard time with pshat. but its true. i can drum up lots of emotions on the concept that ''gadol hamachati-oi yoser min hahorgoi'' (put in google translate). again, i can go into more detail, but the first step is to rewire OUR brain. not the kitzur and not chazal. and the fact that the zohar (oh no!) says what it says, regardless of the many different approaches explaining it-def. says something worse about this aveirah-get ready-more than ANY OTHER SIN. 
  ditto about my opinion. 

Tzaddikim in all generations have grappled with explaining this Zohar HaKadosh. Yes, the words of the Zohar are emes 100%, but if you will look at the rest of the Zohar you will see very many places that most of us have no idea how to explain what is being said. So let's leave it for the tzaddikim to explain - and they tell us not to get down in the dumps over this quote. Personally and very humbly, I feel that only one who is in recovery and is truly ready to in good mental health do teshuva for this obviously serious aveira, should say Tefilla Zaka. The rest of us will only get depressed and may even act out (because of saying it and beating ourselves up when we are unable to process it) within 48 hours of saying it. I used to get so anxious from saying it, that I would get an erection....BH now I can say it and beg Hashem to help me do teshuva for the past.

And yes, masturbation has been around throughout the doros. Our generation has had an exponential "growth" to the challenge due to the fact that very young children are being exposed to so much triggering material before having the proper decision making abilities help them stay in control. But is has been around for as long as humanity has existed. There is a Zohar about that too.....

Hashem Help Me wrote on 18 Oct 2019 03:42:

i read this post.
im unsure if this is in response to what i said.
to be sure...
1.i mentioned no one should get down in the dumps.
2.i mentioned that any gadol that wrote about this had a way of explaining the zohar that teshuva is possible. (the kitzur that i qouted above himself lists various tikkunim for this sin!)
3.cords had mentioned that it has become much more prevalent (due to internet) i dont think anyone argued since.
4. no one argued if masturbation has ''been around throughout the doros'' the discussion was whether one can assume that it was ''rampant''. if i understood cords correctly he was saying thats nothing more than an assumption. Mr. Trouble alluded that i agree to that as well.
5. the only thing i see new being addressed in your post is your personal feeling that people that are not healthy shouldnt say tefilas zakkah. i think we all agree on the concept of someone being an ''ones'' from tefillas zakkah, and you probably also agree that one should know himself thoroughly or ask a competent LOR who knows his situation before omitting such an essential hakdama to yom kippur. (aside from the fact that there are many parts to tefilas zaakah to cross out the whole thing sounds a bit extreme....)  
6. There was another point in the discussion about whether this is the most chumur aveirah in the torah. (not the teshuva point, although that is a proof.) i knew better then to bring the zohar so i brought the kitzur. and to say that the kitzur shouldnt be read kipshuto is to basically say goodbye to the entire limud of kitzur. if i may say, thats bordering on ridiculous. it can get very technical in exactly what way is this more chumur than any other aveirah but the kitzur says a general statement. ''lo si-hey muchlefes''. like i said, im unsure if u were addresing this at all in your post, but im reiterating just in case. 
i can go on with more specifics in regards to explaining the kitzur but i wasnt really coming to do that and my main point was the approach to ignore it or leave the kitzur with an attitude of oh thats kabbalah and we dont understand it anyway. the kitzur, who wrote to all jews and was accepted as a posek hadoros....
thought otherwise.