ask yourself this: what kind of sick demented mind spends all his time on gye hovering over uri's posts? (im sorry uri, i do love your posts)...

does Gd love us? My vote is No. Moshe tells us in Devarim 7:8 that Gd loves us (' כִּי מֵאַהֲבַת יְהוָה אֶתְכֶם, וּמִשָּׁמְרוֹ אֶת-הַשְּׁבֻעָה אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּע לַאֲבֹתֵיכֶם) but then in 10:15 he clairifes that Gd chose us because he loved our fathers (רַק בַּאֲבֹתֶיךָ חָשַׁק יְהוָה, לְאַהֲבָה אוֹתָם; וַיִּבְחַר בְּזַרְעָם אַחֲרֵיהֶם, בָּכֶם מִכָּל-הָעַמִּים--כַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה)...

Because your STill alive rage!

bestrong: that may or may not be circumstantial evidence that he loves us but WHY would he love us? we're creeps...i dont love us...why would he? hes given and given and given and we've done jack in return....we pat ourselves on the back so hard for doing the slightest mitzvah we nearly break our spines...why would hashem love us?

(What I am about to post is possibly not reflective of the truth per the kabalah ideas that I have overheard, as, in some essential respect, the trein rei'in delo misparshin are a reality, and even though we, as Knesess Yisroel, are only openly identified with the Shechina haK'dosha which seems to be surrounded with the thorns of k'lipos and evil now and our "mate" is seperated from us in some way while protecting us in the Golus. Gevalt. What it all means is that we are so far apart, even though we are so connected. This golus is bitter, bitter, bitter, because of how horrifying it makes things look. At the source, though, we are still really in total yichud, and essential, because Yisroel, oraisa v'Kudsha B"H chad hu. My post is meant only "al derech avodah".)

Dear Rage, I believe that Moshe Rabeinu was teaching us that even though He does love us as we are, if we are to retain the correct perspective, it is essential that we occasionally see ourselves as though we are "non-essential personnel". To not directly pin that love on ourselves, but on Him. Meaning, the main point is that: He loves. That we are the recipient of that love is really almost accidental, in our view. Avraham, the one Hashem said He loved so much had one favorite saying: "va'anochi ofor vo'eifer" - I'm nothing, like some dust, that's all.
So after letting us in on the real Truth, maybe Moshe Rabeinu told us how to stay in the game: Look at it this way: He only loves you because of your fathers, He only gave you eretz yisroel because the wacked-out goyim there were sooo bad, etc.
Hope this means something and is useful to someone.

does Hashem love us? YES, rage. you want proof? count some blessings
Why? no clue!
but he does anyway!
how awesome is that
plain chessed from Hashem
not for a reason
just because we're his.

Raja,

Good question.
And I can give several answers.
But really we need Battleworn here.

1)Part of the reason we can't understand Hashem's love enough is just like you said:We don't love ourselves as we should.And therefore we don't understand how anyonecan love us.That includes friends,wives,etc.. If we saw what they see in us,we'd surely be pretty impressed.And G-d sees everything about us and He loves us regardless!In fact,that's why He loves us.

2)We don't need to understand Hashem's love for us.The fact is that He just does.Some things are beyond our hasaga.

3)I love you

4)Yea.Tomatoes are hard to get symmetric.But listen,you gotta do what you gotta do.

Think warm bear hugs!
-uri

Rageleh,
(sorry ;D)

You ask about us as individuals, oh. I thought you meant as a group...
Well, the first thing that comes to my own mind about that is:

How else am I sober today? The only one I ever asked to help me, was Him.

Ciao.

Dov's take on the matter is very deep... But Rage, there's no stirah between the two pesukim you brought... He loves us because of our fathers... So? He still loves us.

Anyway, Hashem loves all his creatures. Even Beitzei Kinim.

love,
kina

The Tanya says that Hashem loves the biggest and lowest sinner in klal yisrael more than the best-behaved goy.
And Guard,you put a whole new understanding on lice.
Thank you.

Rage,

It time you start loving yourself. Then you will realize that G-d loves you SOO much.

Rage AT Machine wrote on 06 Oct 2009 20:47:


I also labored under this misconception for many many years. My reasoning being that how can G-d love a miserable sinner as me........Until I had this awesome paradigm shift from the chovos halvovaos chapter 3 of the Gates of Trust, where he states unequivocally that not Just G-d love me intensely - More love then even a mother loves a newborn -  as a matter of fact any love that comes directed my way from anybody, from my spouse, parents, my kids my friends, all that love is really G-ds love being channeled thru them..

Check it out!! It blew me away!!!

Total 180degree shift....

G-d  is not petty!

If I tell a loved one to do something for me  and they refuse I get angry......my love may starts to  diminish.....

The Chovos Halvevos posits that this concept is axiomatic to trusting in G-d.

If there is no unconditional love from G-d there can be no Trust in G-d!

With G-dly love to all

Noorah

The Jewish belief has always been that Hashem loves the Jewish people.  The non-Jewish belief has been that, because we didn't properly observe the Torah, Hashem no longer loves us.  Take your pick.

The proofs that Hashem continues to love us even when we sin are too numerous to enumerate.  Just a few that come to mind:

1.) We are called "Bonim" to Hashem.

2.) The Pasuk "Habein Yakir Li Ephraim."

3.) The Chafetz Chaim writes that Lashon Horah is Ossur, even if what you're saying is well known.  Why?  Because a parent does not like when people speak against his children, even if what's being said is already known.

4.) We are commanded to love Hashem.  Would it be reasonable for us to be required to love Hashem if Hashem did not love us?

5.) The Rambam writes (Hilchos Teshuva 3,11) that one who is not Mishtateif in the Tzaros of Klal Yisrael has no Cheilek in Olam Habah.

6.) The whole concept of Teshuva demonstrates Hashem's love for us.  Especially Teshuva Mei'Ahavah, where our Aveiros are transformed into Mitzvos.

Kedusha wrote on 07 Oct 2009 03:08:


That Hashem loves the Jewish Nation unconditionally and for all eternity was never the issue here (I hope ) the Torah and tanach is full of that.

We say it in maariv every night ahavas olom/ eternal love you love your people Israel.... Blessed are you Hashem the lover of His nation Israel!

What I thought the discussion was about was the love for each individual Jew, their baskets of sin notwithstanding. To this I added from the CH.

Noora

Noorah,

I too hope that this is not an issue for any Frum (or, indeed, Jewish) person.  Unfortunately, one of the posts above seem to indicate that it is an issue.

Noorah BAmram wrote on 07 Oct 2009 03:03:


What a beautiful idea!
Never heard it before and you started my day off so beautifuly Noorah!
Thank you

GEVALDIG!!