Rage ATM wrote on 12 Jan 2010 22:36:
cmon rage you know that BS!!! every since youve started saying baruch hatatty you havent been the same!!!!!!

What do you mean by upping your dossage of religiousity?

He means like screaming shema on top of his lungs!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or saying every word in the 18 , 18 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Duvid Chaim put it (I dont remember his exact words): We are all very religious... but we need to become more SPIRITUAL. This is a spiritual disease not a religious disease. Ive had a tough time discerning between the two but the main thing is spiritual means our direct connection with Hashem.

-Yiddle

Rage ATM wrote on 12 Jan 2010 22:51:
The differnce between religous and spiritual is like this; Religous is talking the talk walking the walk or as you would put it shukling the shukel. Spiritul is making it a real part of me. changing my myself for the better etc etc. So i totally agree with you rage that religous wont get us anywhere but being more spiritual like actually doing somehting that will change our whole bein or mentality will work.

I'm gonna be the punch line on the joke here.

Rage is right. This Torah stuff didn't get us into to this, and it ain't gonna get us out. Everything we're dealing with is BEFORE breishis. As the Alter of Slabodka said - the Torah doesn't speak  to idiots. We've been/are idiots. And yes, that's actually Rage's affectionate voice. TRUST me. He didn't mean any harm, just the same clarity he asks from himself - he asks from others.

But -

Habib - and yearning are right. Poor girl is delicate. And truth isn't a sledgehammer. It's going to be baby steps for her - she's already joined SA. And that's more guts then I have. She'll learn. Not from us. Not in a single slam. Piece by piece, meeting by meeting, maybe one day she'll be able to see the good in herself and not have to look for it in others...this constant feeling she is hated  is what led her here and is burning her alive, and God knows the hell that gave her that feeling, not us. I know it led me here.

Girls, see if you can fix that one. I think the girls will be fine. It's our forum we're going to have to worry about.

I too was seriously shterred by her story.

Also, following the 12 steps such as admitting powerlessness and putting all your faith in G-d would also improve your spirituality. And as Rage said you need to do concrete physical actions to  combat this disease. (Although, I'm not one to talk, its much easier to write about doing it then actually doing it)

Rage ATM wrote on 12 Jan 2010 23:03:



Yeah, but we're still on the girls thread. And fighting you dropping the accurate - but blunt- truth on one of them.

Time will tell.

please no fighting kinderlach

rage kinderlach means children , ok??

Who was fighting? That was animated discussion.

RATM's rather crusty post was a great example of the kind of well-intentioned "ripping-the-newbie-apart-athons" that I have heard about at some AA old-timer meetings. The curmudgeons there begin to drool just as soon as they smell the blood of a wide-eyed neophyte who - often after attending only 2 meetings -  goes on and on about how awesome AA is and how godlike all the folks with 20 years of sobriety are. He expects to have just 'payed his ticket for admission' at this point, only to find that he really just tipped his hand: he thinks he can gain 'admission' to the club by paying the members - he finds out that the only one he's gotta pay is the piper. And all of them know it....
Declaring the greatness of others is a tempting substitute for admitting my own weakness, sorry motivations, and sick priorities.
Of course, our problem is that we all hide behind BS. But what do you expect from people like me...
It's kind of sad to watch the feeding frenzy, though it needs to be done, of course.

By the end of the meeting there is not much left of the poor innocent newbie.

And that's often a good thing. Cuz in a few weeks - if he doesn't get scared away - he'll probably happily discover that the one person he now trusts the least in the entire world, is "the old him".

Not my personal derech, but there seems to be a place for it.

It seems that alot of us go through some period of deifying/worshipping people who started to get better earlier than we did, as though they really have something over us and always will. Of course that's nutty. And nuts are best when ground and smashed into butter! Yum.

So if Yearning can accepts the imperfections of other addicts (like Rage ATM, me, and me , and others) and herself and join the club of "losers who really win", it may be a really good thing. I honestly believe that as crass as it sounded, Rage really gave her the best help he had to offer. Though I'd bet that it's rare that folks on a virtual forum would actually accept it and use it...

Perhaps it's better to get the stuff that is holding in the same pattern beaten out of us here, than by screwing up a lot more out there. Hey, the "lovers" out there who convince us that they desire and "love" us are really only using us for their own dependencies. They don't really give a rat's gluteus for you, or for anyone. People in recovery are at least learning how to love each other. What about your 'dark side guys'? Are they? I think not, cuz if I act out I am a 'dark side guy'. And I know how lust makes everybody else's benefit but mine, a pain in the patoot.
Who would you rather be your guide to the truth about yourself? The "happy users", or folks like Rage? I pick folks in recovery. As goofy and imperfect as they are, at least they won't lie to my face and use me.  
Hatzlocha!
You can stay in recovery and choose the good life!

I never thought I would say this, but..........................

I understand DOVISHNESS!!!!!!!


Oh dear, what does this say about me?

I know i'm behind the times, while  was typing 9 more posts came, but here's my 2 cents anyway:


imtrying25 wrote on 12 Jan 2010 22:57:



OK , now you're gonna have to sit thru another of my long posts. Sorry.

We defined the terms on DC's Call:

A religious person is one who believes there is a hell.

A spiritual person has BEEN to hell.

Yes, Rage, correct that being outwardly religious doesn't help.

But being spiritual means your connection with Hashem is REAL, it's growing.

But even THAT"S not gonna save us.

What's gonna save us, get us to freedom, is:

#1:  to ACCEPT THAT OUR ADDICTION IS AN ALERGY, meaning I can't even touch Lust or I will not be able to stop myself from falling. So i need to make that geder strong. And we talk alot about eitzas and emergency measures here, Baruch Hashem.

But even THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE US!! we need:

#2: To REALIZE and INTERNALIZE THE FOLLOWING:  THAT WE MUST ERADICATE THE CAUSES THAT MAKE US WANT TO LUST. Uproot it from the CORE. Those reasons are personal to each of us, but they have the SAME EFFECT on each of us. They bring us to DEPRESSION and ANGER and wanting to be somewhat SELF-DESTRUCTIVE because inside we HATE OURSELVES. And then we fall and act out it is either because we are WANTING to be self-destructive, or because we are ANGRY at Hashem and want to do something to get back at Him, or because WE ARE IN SO MUCH PAIN THAT WE WANT TO ESCAPE IT, we want to NUMB OURSELVES to avoid facing it for a while. And our DRUG OF CHOICE that we use to numb ourselves and escape from Life is Lusting and Acting Out.

and lastly:

#3: TO ACT UPON THAT REALIZATION and actually ERADICATE those forces that that create that Depression, which is to OVERCOME OUR RESENTMENTS OF LIFE AND OUR FEARS OF BEING HURT OR FUTURE FAILURE.

Now, did you hear any G-d Talk in those steps? NO!! Because just being religious is not a direct part of it.

However, where G-d does come in is that we ask Him to guide us and help us, give us of HIS strength to overcome those forces. We can't do it on our own. At least i know I couldn't!! And in doing that, we become more SPIRITUALLY FOCUSED, BECAUSE HASHEM BECOMES MORE PROMINENTLY A PART OF OUR DAILY LIFE and struggles. Not thru being outwardly religious, but thru being inwardly SPIRITUAL. for us Torah Yidden, that means Diveykus Hashem. And that is a POSITIVE FORCE that gives us tremendous Chizuk & renews our strength to stand up to our YH each day, and to not get depressed if we slip or fall.

The 12-Step Program WORKS, and many of us have gotten to this point where the YH for lust can be pushed aside like a pesky fly on your shoulder, and you'll never nail-bite over it again.

Now, you want a REAL WAGER? (Chizkiyahu, you listening?)

WHO HERE IS MAN ENOUGH TO STOP RANTING AND GET INTO A PROGRAM FOR RECOVERY?!

I don't know if anyone is still reading this here thread, but I just wanted to say:

I suck at goodbyes.

But thanks for everything.

See you on the other side.

Until then, keep on trucking (or shopping, or whatever).


Peace.

i hate goodbyes.
and these are all too permanent for me.

can you guys all promise to keep posting?
cuz we do read your threads, as guests (mh-hmmm... bruce...)

well, bb all you ppls...
this is too depressing.
bye