BecomeHoly wrote on 17 Dec 2009 09:59:

I'm gonna take issue with is this.
A p**n addiction is NOT like a food addiction. And your right that it is "not exactly like coke", because the studies show that it is WORSE than coke, regarding the effects is has on your brain, and it's shaping your neurons and their paths, (which is what convinces you that you need it).
Likewise, the method which will be neccessary to cure a person from each of these, will also be different. One recovering from a lust addiction will not have nearly as easy a time as someone recovering from a food addiction, because the brain reacts to greater pleasure with a more intense impression on the way it will work from that point on. Hence - an addiction. The brain demanding a repeat of it's previous pleasure experience. The stronger the pleasure - the stronger the demand which will soon follow. The pleasure level of food is reasonably low, and therefore very rarely causes a dangerous lack of control, or one to stop functioning properly.
The pleasures of coke and of lust are actually very similar in terms of the quantity of chemicals your brain gives off.

See this article, where Rabbi Twerski says you can become addicted to these things from only one time!

See this page for more on why this is called an "addiction".

And Rabbi Twerski again here.

Now im not gonna say much because it doesnt belong on this forum. Real intimacy is when you wanna give. Lust is when you want to take. Now although it may be "kinda hard" for us addicits to ACCEPT this fact but we all know its true. What we have to work on is NOT  separating the feelings of lust and intamacy. We know the difference. What we need to do is LOVE GIVE LOVE GIVE AND LOVE AND GIVE SOME MORE. Then maybe as time goes on we may start losing our feelings for lust. Think and read between the lines and youll see theres more to what im saying then what meets the eye. And like i said before; take it from a marroed man.

I thought this might be some helpful insight...




Weekly Parasha Insights by Rabbi Eli Mansour

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Description: Parashat Miketz- Learning From Yosef's Bitahon


Parashat Miketz begins with Yosef still languishing in an Egyptian dungeon, where he had been imprisoned on false charges.  Pharaoh's cupbearer had been in the dungeon together with Yosef, but was released from prison and reinstated, as Yosef had predicted.  Before the cupbearer's release, Yosef asked him to plead his case before Pharaoh and try to have him released.  But the cupbearer forgot all about Yosef, and it was not for another two years that God facilitated Yosef's release by sending Pharaoh strange dreams that required Yosef's interpretation.

The Midrash explains that the extra two years that Yosef spent in prison was a punishment for having placed his trust in the cupbearer, rather than on God.  Yosef was to have trusted in God's ability to release him from prison, rather than looking to the cupbearer for help.

The Midrash's comment seems very troubling.  Judaism does not encourage us to sit back idly and trust that God will miraculously care for our needs.  A person cannot sit on the couch all day and expect God to throw money down the chimney.  We are required to make an effort, and then trust in God to grant us success in our endeavors.  Why was it wrong for Yosef to make an effort to secure his release?  Why did his appeal to the cupbearer express a lack of trust in God?

One answer is that when Yosef spoke to the cupbearer, he repeated his request that he remember him ("Zechartani.Ve'hizkartani" - 40:14).  Saying it once would have sufficed for Yosef's "Hishtadlut" (personal effort); by repeating the request, he exhibited a slight deficiency in his trust of God.  Yosef exerted slightly more effort than he should have, and for this he was punished.

Why did this extra word warrant such a harsh punishment?

The amount of "Hishtadlut" required of a person depends on his level of "Bitahon" -trust in God.  Most of us are on the level where we must put in a full day's work to secure a livelihood.  But for those on a higher level, who live each moment of their lives with genuine faith in God's ability to provide, this level of exertion is inappropriate.  They should be putting in a much smaller amount of effort - perhaps just a couple of hours a day - and trust that God will provide them with all their needs.

Yosef excelled in the area of "Bitahon," trust in the Almighty.  Several incidents reflect this quality, perhaps most notably his conversation with the cupbearer and baker in the dungeon.  The Torah tells in Parashat Vayesheb that Yosef one day noticed that they looked distraught, and he approached them to find out what was disturbing them.  They told him about the peculiar dreams they had dreamt and their desire to understand their meaning.  What is remarkable about this incident is Yosef's reaction to seeing his fellow inmates distraught.  They were condemned to live in a dark, dreary, malodorous dungeon.  Why shouldn't they be upset?  Why would a person think to ask people in this situation, "Why are you distraught?"  Didn't Yosef realize why they looked dismayed?

The answer is that Yosef's "Bitahon" led him to accept his situation without complaint.  Yosef did not immediately understand why his fellow inmates looked distraught, because he did not feel distraught.  He enjoyed the serenity that comes from faith in God, the comfort of knowing that wherever he was, God specifically wants him there.  Yosef may not have enjoyed living in the dungeon, but it didn't cause him sorrow and distress.  He accepted it as the will of God and felt content living in the conditions that God, for whatever reason, decided were right for him at that time.

This also explains how Yosef had the peace of mind to go over to his inmates to see what was wrong.  Usually, people in distress are too preoccupied with their own problems to notice or care about the problems of others.  But Yosef was not preoccupied with his problems.  His "Bitahon" allowed him to live contentedly even in the oppressive conditions of an Egyptian prison, and his peace of mind enabled him to show care and concern for the plight of his fellow inmates.

This is why God was so strict with Yosef.  The greater a person's "Bitahon" is, the more God demands of him.  At Yosef's level, just a single, brief remark to the cupbearer would have sufficed for "Hishtadlut."  He was punished for the small additional effort that he made in appealing to the cupbearer for help.

Of course, the standards demanded Yosef are not the standards demanded of us.  However, we can, and must, try to apply the message of Yosef's "Bitahon" in our own lives.  Many people mistakenly think that "Bitahon" means that if we trust in God, then everything will work out exactly the way we want.  This is very far from true.  Even the greatest Sadikim endure hardships, as we see throughout the Book of Bereshit, in the stories of the righteous patriarchs.  The Talmud also tells of great Sages who suffered from illness and family tragedies.  "Bitahon" means, quite simply, trusting that God knows what He's doing, and accepting every situation that we confront as His will.  This outlook will give us the serenity, joy and peace of mind that we all long for.  Once we realize that everything that happens was ordained by God for a purpose, we will accept even life's most difficult challenges calmly and patiently, and not allow them to cause us grief and heartache.

Thanks everyone for your replies :-)

Based on the 4 steps, I'm in step one.  I'm definitely not in Escalation mode.

But in the interest of figuring this out, I will give my lust history.

**This may be a trigger for some... proceed with caution**


I've always been "curious." I can remember from when I was 3 -4 years old I always wondered about these things. When I was 6 years old we moved to a new townhouse, and the area wasn't exactly Jewish. About 5 min walk away was some kind of xxx club with pictures that can be seen from the street. I never actually made it close enough, but I was definitely VERY curious. My neighbors were another thing - I think there were 4 total - our place faced their apartment building, and many times I would just sit by the window in my room (after my parents put me to bed) and just watch whats going on. One of the neighbors would have parties that didn't exactly mean clothes stayed on. Another felt it ok to postpone getting dressed after showers. I would just sit there and soak it in.

Another neighbor had a granddaughter my age that I would sometimes play with. I was curious, and so was she... so we showed each other stuff. Once, I found a gay magazine near our house.... I was pretty sickened by it, but still very curious what that was about.

I found about about the birds and bees when I was in 6th grade I think (11-12) and I discovered in the shower that it felt good when I would use the massaging shower head.... Shortly after, some new friends I made (who were older) showed me some magazines and told me a lot. Another friend I made had an older cousin w/ magazines and I saw those too.

When I was in high school, magazines were going around often enough, but I was kinda in rebellion mode, so I didn't think it was in any way a problem. At around 12th grade, I would visit news stands in the middle of nowhere and spend some time looking through stuff.

After high school, I went to yeshiva for 2 years, and during that time I didn't look at anything that would qualify as x rated, but I didn't stop masturbation. I didn't think too much about it.. it just was something I did.

I went to Israel after, and I decided to be very clean - for the first 2 months, I didn't talk to girls and I didn't masturbate. But then things went down hill. I had an open internet connection, and I found easily accessible free stuff on the internet, and it went downhill from there. Basically been struggling with stopping for a while. Once I started dating, I would generally stay clean, but if things didn't work out I wouldn't have the incentive to stay clean, so I would usually go for it after a break up.

I had never during any of this tried shemiras eynayim. I just didn't think it was a big deal. I think that was one of the main reasons I couldn't stop all the times I tried. How could I expect to stop if I kept inciting myself by watching girls in the street.

Only recently, that I started dating, I started to work on Shemiras Eynayim. But even then, as part of my evaluating my date on whether I could marry them was the attraction. If I was attracted, then I would get somewhat aroused... even though I didn't consciously realize it (I always tried to be extremely kosher even with my thoughts in terms of dating) ... but biological functions told me that yes... something is going on.

I have never touched a girl intimately (not even a hug), and I have been shomer negiah completely for 6 years.

I want a beautiful loving happy wife because that would make me happy. I want to give to her, do for her -  for me I would feel " sexually fulfilled" only if my wife would feel that way too. Knowing shes been fulfilled gives me fulfillment.  - Giving in the sexual relationship is a big drive for me. Isn't this a good approach?  I don't have any of this yet as I haven't found my wife, and meanwhile whats happening is I'm failing to get fulfillment from porn. But my desire is actually to do good. When I'm fantasizing, thats what I fantasize about. A good healthy sexual relationship with my wife. Other things to crop in every now and then, but usually its with a feeling of disgust. A whore is treated like a whore, and if I end up interacting with a female who is acting that way, I am biologically turned on, but intellectually turned off. She's a throwaway, a piece of garbage, a momentary pleasure not worth looking twice at.

I long for the right thing, and am disgusted by the wrong thing. Even the porn I seek out reflects that. I look for the "real thing" not "whore acting."

Even when I'm doing good on keeping my focus and avoiding triggers, I still get very sensitive, and feel a need for "relief." Then, my acting out to get relief is generally with a feeling of "I wish I could do this right by sharing this with my wife. Then I'd feel fulfilled."  I always feel that once married, I would be an idiot to masturbate as that would dilute the experience with my wife - the experience I really want. I would revel in the suspense of being with my wife - that alone would give me a sense of fulfillment.

But the problem is that I'm uncomfortable with discomfort, so I end up wasting time, watching movies... which always leads to triggers...... if I coud just eliminate that I would be 90% there. My acting out at that point would be limited to taming the urge. It would involve no porn, and maybe even no fantasies (fantasy would be limited to being with my future wife). In the past, thats what happened - I fell only because I couldn't resist taming the urge - there was no fantasy involved - it was almost like going to the bathroom. I don't know if it something I should do - just "tame the urge" but it would definitely be a concrete way to focus myself and get me in the right frame of mind.

Anyway enough ranting.

As far as the question of addiction (from before), listen to the 4 minute clip here: rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=1375.0

As far as your situation, do you get the daily Chizuk e-mails? In Chizuk e-mail #656 there was a piece that explains a lot about the right attitude of being with one's wife...

Sexual desire was created by G-d with two different aspects to it. There is the "lust" that the man feels, which is often related to the woman's body, and then there is the sensual excitement and emotional closeness felt at the time of intercourse. The "lust" aspect was created by G-d to cause the man to desire the woman and take her for himself, in other words - it is there to lead to marriage. However, once the couple is married, the "lust" aspect of "sex" has done it's job and should no longer be a dominant aspect of the sexual relationship between the couple. He has his woman, they have dedicated themselves to each other, and their sexual relationship should become one of sensuality and emotional closeness. If a man keeps the "lust" aspect of sex alive, he will be pulled constantly in all directions by the women on the street and on the internet, and also, as his wife has children and her body changes and/or as she gets older, he will loose interest in her and he will never be able to lead a normal marriage life. Sex after marriage should develop into an emotional closeness between the two of you.

See also
www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ29.asp

If you have more questions in this area, you can likely find answers on our FAQ page, which I suggest going through over here: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ.asp

Thanks Reb Guard for clarifying that. I signed up last week so I've only received the latest emails. I actually have read LOTS of the material on this site, and 90% of the time I have already read the links you send (but don't stop sendign em :-) Just so you have a perspective of where my questiosn are coming from. I actually listened to r' twerskis thing before you sent me the link. So now what? is there no hope for me w/o the 12steps? do I really need that level of help?

All i can say dude is that i had alot of these same feelings before i got married. Easier said then done. Hey i aint trying to knock you i just want you, as a holy loving brother, to realize what your up against. It aint as simple as it sounds.

imtrying25 wrote on 18 Dec 2009 00:25:

I second that

I was thinking a bit about how to educate the future generations about the internet.

Basically its all very dangerous and although on the one hand we could try to avoid the issue by banning it, the reality is that won't cut it. If someone wants it, they'll have it. It will sneak up on them and they'll be hooked (on the bad parts).

The fact is that current filters just don't properly protect us. They're all easy to get around. A wifi card with a live cd is all it takes. Just like drugs, its available everywhere.

I say, educate your kids about the usefulness verse the danger. If your kids have accepted the dangers, they WONT use the internet without a filter, just like they won't try drugs if they've been educated about their dangers. If you don't educate them at all, they'll end up finding it with all its pitfalls on their own.... but by then the damage will have been done.... and it will be very hard to fix. This is probably the best solution we can come up with. We'll never get it 100% just like with "good kids" who end up on drugs anyway. But at least this way, we'll save those unsuspecting souls that were given their first shot of heroin without even knowing what it is they're doing.

The system needs to keep up with the 21st century. Old techniques do not work anymore. Technology drastically changes year by year; if we don't keep up, not only will we be illiterate, we'll also be worse off spiritually than before, simply because our defenses were outdated as well.


If the education trains us to be super vigilant on the internet, almost like looking both ways before crossing the street, or putting on your seatbelt or helmet, than we have a better fighting chance. Filters with education. Accountability with education. Just saying ASSUR = an invitation to break the rules.

Ok I'm gonna stop ranting now.... with God's help maybe I'll be able to revolutionize the Jewish education system (which I am quite disappointed with right now) but that discussion is for a different time.

Have an excellent Rosh Chodesh Erev Shabbos Chanuka. :-)

BecomeHoly wrote on 17 Dec 2009 22:31:

I'm with you here. I had a hard time even convincing myself that I belong to level one. For me, every time I would fall, I'd consider it a random occurance. There were almost no times that I didn't say to myself with 100% honesty "That is the last time I will ever do that". And I actually wouldn't consider it again - until I'd be in front of a computer alone, and I'd just get the idea in my head, and just happen to listen. I'll even throw a curve ball at you. MB was not even a nesayon for me. It was assur, so I didn't even consider it. (Don't ask how I could say that at the same time as I watched the absolute worst thing my eyes could possibly see according to the halachah, that's just the way the Y"H works.) In a way, that actually gave me a disadvantage, because I could sit in front of the computer for 4-5 hours at a time, whereas once someone does mb he's usually done for the session. For me, it was over only when I had to go, for shachris or bec my wife got home or whatever. This went on for years, durring which I never once considered the possibility that 'perhaps there's something wrong with what's going on here'.
For many people on the board, the addiction is a lot more pronounced, or visible if you will. There's no mistaking their addiction for anything else. There are those out there who feel the actual desire (whatever their particular type of addiction) the same way one feels the need for water when he's thirsty like crazy. It's no longer just a good feeling they want to experience anymore. It becomes a very real need, that in their minds - cannot be compromised. There are levels of addiction in which one will literally take ill and be vomiting durring the healing process.
Needless to say, it is much easier for someone at this stage to recognize his situation for what it really is, and their need for a professional system of recovery. Unlike people like me and yourself (based on the way you describe your situation), who's situations can very easily be mistaken for 'just something we haven't gotten past yet', but without a doubt will grow out of it eventually. Unfortunately, this is not the case. [b]We have the same exact sickness, but at a less advanced stage.

You're right on target. Listen to this 4 minute clip (I re-edited it to include the part I want you to hear).




Mi LaHashem Alai! Welcome aboard the GYE boat. We're gonna do this. TOGETHER.

BecomeHoly wrote on 18 Dec 2009 00:08:


That's why we created the GYE handbook. It deals with basically 18 different levels of addiction. Start from level 1 and go on through the tools until YOU STOP. I hope you won't need to get to tool #14 (12 Steps), but if you do, you'll know that that's what you need.

In your case, I would drop watching all movies and such stuff in Tool #2 of the handbook. If recovery is important to you, they gotta go. This is VERY HARD, I know, but consider it a sacrifice to Hashem on the alter of your heart for the sake of regaining your sanity and recovering.

G-d luck and G-d speed!

I went through so much thought on how to do this in a way which is not effected by the constanty changing technology or attitudes of the new generations. The stark realization that there simply is no answer we can come up with is so frustrating, it makes you want to get violent.
But the answer is really exactly what you said. "With G-d's help". He is the one who creates the generations and their tests, he will also create the remedies for all those who seek to do his will. The truth is, it's not our job to be concerned with future generations. Our job is this generation.
I will quote Ghandi: "Be the change you want to see in the world".
This really sums it all up. We can only REALLY work with ourselves. Sometimes we're lucky, and we show our concern for G-d to such a great extent, that he gives us the ability to help others as well.
I think that's where the key to the cure is. In those individuals who are determined with their own accounting.

Im not so maskim to this BH. simply for the reason that there is tayva involved. People are born with a tayva for these things. As opposed to drugs which theres is no inborn tayva for. Most people come onto drugs because they are depressed or whatever but porn etc etc people are born with it. So explaing the dangers of drugs might help whereas explaing the dangers of the internet doesnt necssaseraly take away the tayva. Hope i didnt sound to yeshivish but theres a point im trying to bring out.