You want to see the marketing techniques? Listen to dov! What I wrote in paragraph 4 is almost verbatim of what he has said in the past.

I will allow that he hasn't said you are an idiot. But basically he says all you can do is just fight. He denies that anything else can be effective other than the 12 steps. Ok, therapy maybe. He interprets "אין חבוש..." as if it was written about addiction! Basically, you can't help yourself if you're an addict. And who defines what an addict Is?

SA of course! 

This is terribly disempowering! I understand people are trying to help by saying what worked for them...

I'm not saying it's all deliberate or malicious. I agree it's just suggestions. However, they really believe that they are correct. This is really dangerous. I don't know if I'm correct about any of the above, I may be wrong. S.A. might have got the definition of addict right. 

However, as much as they say they promote by attraction... Who posts on the forums with a "know all, holier than thou attitude?" 

Where is the fuc**** humility? 

OK, I know I sound like a dic* in these past posts. I'm sorry. 

No need to apologize you are just frustrated and trying to get clarity kudos to you for being honest about it

I would have to disagree about Dov but this is not the place to discuss it however let me ask you this have you ever spoken to him and not just listen to recordings or phone conferences?
I have thru email and was very impressed with the open mindedness that he has....

And about those who post with an "all know holier than thou" attitude are not here anymore or do not last more than a month or two.(and if you were referring to Dov I think you need to reread his posts when things calm down a bit)

Love ya bro KOTNMW

we will get thru this together ......all of us

I wasn't attempting a character defamation of dov. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

However, he does state his opinion on what he thinks a person's options are to succeed in these areas, and they are very limited! 

With regards to if I've spoken to him... Yes I have, more than once. We are not close or anything, but I actually really like him.

My point is that there is a dominant view in the world of addiction that suppresses the views of others! 

Contrast these two beliefs and decide for yourself which is more helpful:

1. I'm a sexaholic and urges will forever be inevitable, unless I follow the doctrines of the twelve steps. 

2. Each time I don't give in it weakens the neural pathways created by my addictive behaviors and eventually things will get easier as I learn to surge urges and develop skills to overcome them.

Peace

How about option three
I'm a sexaholic and urges will be forever and inevitable and the best shot I have is with 12 steps as it seems to be helping others and I have yet to find for myself a better way to deal with my problems so maybe others can help me find a program that works for me.

Pretty much a mix of 1 and 2

Ihave, your post was written intelligently and honestly. There definitely does appear to be a sort of SA culture with accompanying set of beliefs. But guess what? It works for many people. And for those who need it, thats great news.

Regarding Dov, he is actually the one who told me not to join SA, when i was about to join. He said that for those who dont need it, it is actually a lifelong cop out. Instead of working and fighting they are using a mehalech that may actually work, but its like using chemotherapy on let's say strep throat.

One last thought. Human beings are not computers and our environments are extremely complex. Each one of us is dealing with so many variables, situations, personalities, etc. There is definitely no one size fits all, or even 1000 sizes that cover everyone. Each individual has to understand themselves and their own circumstances, and together with advice from those much wiser, must develop a plan of action to break free. For some people, resigning themselves to what you seem to look at as an inferior status, flawed , damaged etc, is what works for them. Personally i think they wouldnt use that terminology. Rather, they view the term pervert similar to the way we view diabetes. They have a condition Hashem gave them. Being at peace with it opens up the road to recovery. Is a diabetic flawed? A second class citizen ? A subhuman? So in essence you and i and everyone else here have to intelligently and patiently analyze ourselves as we iyh progress through recovery and develop a tailor made plan b'ezras Hashem to get better. Hatzlocha to you and to all.

As others have written, please forgive me if anyone was even slightly offended. This is a sensitive subject. Chas v'shalom did i mean to cause anyone confusion or pain.

Feelin' for you and the issues you addressed.

I will say my take, and it may be wrong, but it's the only one I have.

I am an addict.
I do not think I was born that way.
I think my decisions (made easier by circumstances that were given to me by God) caused me to become this way.
My mind has always (since 14) been perverted, and to a much lesser degree, it still is.
I tried stoppin' the actin' out many different ways.
Ultimately, gye, therapy, openin' up to many others (in real), more therapy - specialist, sa meetin's, sponsors, calls, 12 steps, more calls, book readin', etc. got me to where I am today.
I have character defects.
Some are better now.
Do people without this issue also have character defects? Yes, but it quite possibly didn't affect their lives like it does mine.
Is there one way to recover? No.
I believe that some of the things written in the books are extremely haughty and wrong (if you're addicted and the 12 steps don't help, you're mentally sick and you really don't wanna be helped) and I have said that on all my calls.
I believe that some sa members could become haughty and it can be quite culty. I believe that about others as well. People not in sa can be like that as well.
I do not think that the books or the program can do any harm to any person, even if he's not addicted; it can only be beneficial.

Hope I was clear.

Oh, and by the way, I am still addicted.

B'hatzlachah

@Ihave... You know that I love you and care about you and only want the best for you. But when I read these posts I am saddened that this is your impression of 12-step. I have not had this experience at all. I also think that you're a bit of an outsider and might be going out of line a bit. Yes you have some experience with 12-step, but it's minimal. I'm still a newcomer and I've been in SA for about 3 years. And you aren't even in a 12-step fellowship. I wouldn't let those hangups prevent me from doing what is right for my recovery.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 12 Sep 2017 11:31:

Well Said 

Shlomo24 wrote on 13 Sep 2017 17:26:

I don't believe in lines, and I have the right to an opinion. 

Peace 

Talking for myself i was haughty before i joined any programs.
The fellowship of SA is amazing, a lot of amazing people all dealing with pain, emotions, bad character traits and also a bit (or lot) of lust, sharing their deepest selves with a raw honesty that is just unheard of in the real world, which creates a vulnerability which builds an intimacy that can easily be seen as cultish from the outside looking in although id more call it cliquish.
What I love about SA is that most of the time on the calls i take and make all day i dont hear very much about lust past the first lust surrender and i hear loads about the pain and the selfishness and the feelings and emotions.
Its so real and so much deeper than the world out there which talks about food and ball games and tv shows.
Now thats not the world of the frum jew, i understand that.
The real ehrliche ones, like my rav, spend all their day speaking at a "program" level about Hashem and character traits and goals in life, with learning Torah being kneged Coolam.
The difference is theres no bond of a shared problem in that world,(addiction) rather a shared solution (torah/avodah/gemilat chasadim)
The fellowship of yidden is bonded together with Torah and suffering unfortunately and a shared purpose (to bring the shechina back and be a shining example)
Im not trying to compare the two but there are a few similiarities.
And many differences,
I could go on for a while on this topic but i will end with the idea that "the doctrines of the 12 steps" are nothing more than Trust Hashem, Do cheshbon Hanefesh, and help others....
The 'big book' way is to become recovered.
There is a whole sub culture in SA which call themselves Recovered Sex Addicts.
The main key is that if they stop to live with these doctrines, then there is no guarantee that they will remain recovered,
And thats a fair point to make no?
Since its a dis-ease of forgetfullness?
We all know how quickly we forget and act out again.

I think some people are commenting without actually reading my original post and the ensuing conversation. Just a feeling. 

You can read it here guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/305558-Journey-of-one-day-at-a-time?limit=15&start=570#320126

Ihavestrength,

I've waged this battle many times and you're right, most of the time people do get offended. 

Now, you can't deny that it works for some people. BUT, and here's the big but, from a behavioral perspective when people feel that they can't control something, than they won't. If they believe that they can and are empowered then they will.

Go read about learned helplessness and Roy Baumeister's studies about free will and self control, where he shows that when people are told that they can control their behavior, they do so much better than when they're told they can't.

Which means that for some people the 12 steps will be toxic and will paradoxically make their binges and falls longer and harder. On that, you're correct.

The flip side, though, is that if you already believe that you can't do anything about it, then the 12 steps will empower you because they'll tell you that you can- just turn to your higher power. And those people have just been empowered.

And one thing I will add- having done live meetings for a while- the one thing that even a detractor of the 12 steps has to admit is that as a program of growth- getting rid of resentments, fears, etc- there is some amazing spiritual growth in the program. That, even I have to admit. 

@workingguy

Excellent post. 

Workingguy wrote on 14 Sep 2017 18:57:

Finally. I was even going to pm you to respond to this thread. I'm glad you did. 

Even though I don't like the comparison of powerless to learned helplessness (which is a topic that I've studied). I still appreciate that you posted.

@workingguy 

With regards to your point about "if you already believe you can't do anything than the 12 steps empower you": Why accept a limiting belief to begin with?