Okay, Okay, Dov. Come to my Mikva and we'll discuss it.

MT

I have 2 confessions to make:

1) I've never gone to mikva when other people have been there because I feel so uncomfortable. Someone in yeshiva said jokingly to me "that says more about you and your sick mind than anything else." He was joking but he was right. Still, I just can't do it.

2) The few times I went to mikva when it was empty it was because I wanted to purify myself after my last ever masturbation. I knew with absolute certainty that it would never happen again so I wanted to purify myself from it. I fell soon after each time.

for me, going to mikva would be the worst thing because it would make it much more likely that i'd act out again. It would be like me saying "OK, I've done it, I'm no longer an addict, I've got this under control". I've said that many times and it's never worked out well.

But that's just me, I just wanted to say it.

Dr. Watson, it seems to me that when you say that you go to the Mikvah because you have decided that you can control it, then of course you will fall, so why not go to the Mikvah again with the knowledge that your life and desires are in Gods hands now.

About the fact you are uncomfortable, it is not because of your sick mind, now I also don't feel comfortable, but that is because when people are naked they lose their צלם אנוש and Chahamim said that even your own private parts you should not see because any private parts can get you thinking and not that you are homosexual or somethings,
KOT
Aish

to Lehavot aish:

The sifrei halocah mention clearly that it is wrong for a person to be sure to hide his privates from others seeing them when he goes to the mikvah. While they say that it is wrong to come up out of the mikvah facing the crowd - they still say clearly that "One who fully hides his privates in the bathhouse is declaring that he is ashamed of the bris of Avrohom avinu."

So if you are one of those who carfully covers with a towel on the way to the shower and on the way out of the shower to the mikvah and then on the way out of it...I'd ask you to consider that you might discuss the issue with a reliable Rov.

I am not saying it is 'assur' to hide privates, but just that it is not so simple that one's privates should 'of course not be visible to others' in the mikvah.

Now, I have not intentionally looked just out of curiosity at my penis for years. But I am far from afraid of it. And I am not afraid of seeing others' privates, either. There is an unhealthy fear of women - that just brings us to put them on a pedestal as lust objects and as the big, bad 'Enemy'...and it hurts more than it helps. I feel the same way about my privates. So I like the 'it's no big deal, really' attitude better.

Consider calming down about the whole issue, is what I am suggesting. That's all.


To Doc:

I agree that the natural forces of lust and human sexuality are far, far above anyone's ability to 'stop' just by wishing to have 'more faith' or whatever. Boruch Hashem you have the self-honesty just to accept the facts and your limitations. And to open up right here about them the way you have, is a thing you may not have done back when you started posting! The confession you make is actually true tahara at its best, man. Better than a mikvah for fixing ourselves.

And boruch Hashem you can see how - for you - going to the mikvah is a prime cause of your ending up acting out. So - till now, at least - it has actually been a tool for tum'ah, not tahara for you. There are so many guys who discover they 'fall' a lot more around aseres y'mei Teshuvah...same exact mechanism.

The solution to that is certainly not making declarations of faith, telling ourselves we should not be that way, or pretending 'we are spiritually one with G-d now so it should be alright'. You have 'fallen' enough that now you know the forces of lust are far more powerful than religious wishes and aspirations. That's a very, very painful thing to face for us frum masturbaters. It means that real action is needed - not selfcontrol of our minds...ooh, that's a hard pill to swallow. Learning harder, more mussar, more ani ma'amins, more tikun klalis - all those, we can accept. But they are all just pretending we have the power to change our hearts and deny our sexuality. But Brain cells can't move - they are the weakes cells in the body! Feelings and bodily experience will eventually win over the brain cells!

You know that, and I think you have come a very long way so far. I hope I'm growing, too, and pleasee daven for me.


To MT:

No problem, but I'd rather talk to most people with my clothes (and theirs) on. I guess I'm a bit squeamish like the firebird fellow...

To Dov:
I have gotten a psak Halachah from my rov that one should first of all cover his own penis (no need for a towel but it is easier) and second of all that one should not look at others' penises, simple logic to me, no?

Is it OK for me to ask if you specifically asked for a psak on that issue, or whether the rov initated this issue to be clarified?

I do not EVER doubt a psak and am sure your Rov is 100% competent. But as with many things, there is definitely a tzad to do differently, and I am not maiking up this quote from Chaza"l. I have been in the mikvah with great Rabbonim, and have never noticed any of them cover their waists with a towel on the way to the shower.

The only people I have ever seen do that are bochurim. What does that tell you?

It tells me that though there may be room for the behavior in halocha - there is quite probably an emotional motivation far stronger than religion that is guiding it: shame. Probably shame due to masturbation or the tayvos for it. Shame of sexuality that does not exist with healthy (mature) rabbonim.

I am very happy to leave this issue alone at this point, if that is what you'd prefer. This issue, as I wrote above to MT, is just minutiae. I do not for a minute believe that our actions are purely guided by objective halocha nearly as much as we imagine they are. For there is room in halocha for both dayos, and we masturbaters are generally going to be attracted to the style of practice that fits our tendencies the best and is most comfy.

But growth comes from doing what is uncomfortable and out of the familiar box, no?

I'll say two things:
1) I never said cover with a towel, I meant with your hands, but out of shame or possibly the not wanting to see or show off I cover with a towel.
2) I am not sure, but isn;t there a problem going to the Mikvah with a rav or is that only a Rav Muvhak?

It's with a Rav muvhak or gadol muflag, I believe.

...i was wondering when someone'd bring that up!


But this conversation has gone over in a way I never intended and I am sorry. Perhaps it went south and got tied into red herrings because I went and spelled out my motives in that discussion with MT.

I just wanted to point out the possibility that there was something else going on here, chaver, and in a respectable, loving way. But here we are discussing it as though it is a halachik issue. I am not sure if the truth is being dealt with, or not. Please accept my apologies, lahavote aish, and I sincerely hope you just continue doing exactly whatever is really working for you so far.

- Dov

Dov wrote:
Yes, I am agree with that !
If somebody say me "Hi !" or "Good Shabbos !", I will respond with a great smile, and I will not ignore them. And if I see friends at the Mikvah, I will give them also some warm greetings

No need to be somber at the Mikvah. But to have a little reserve, and respect of the place. When some guys start to talk about soccer or to tell jokes with big laughts, it's a little difficult to stay concentrated...
This is what I call "kalus rosh"

In short : beinoni behaviour, adapted to the place.

Exactly what I meant. I'd share a mikvah with you and MT any time!

Dov wrote:


Okay! Just make sure they have 3 showers.

MT

Yeah...and I'll bring extra towels for youngsters!

don't forget the

Yes, let us take lengthy showers before and after the Mikvah and make "traffic" whilst all we pay is 75 cents more or less for a nice heated Mikvah. Or, let us bring our undisciplined rowdy kids to the Mikvah.
Sorry for being so "optimistic", there are also humans mostly who come to the Mikvah, I find the Mikvah I go to very nice Baruch Hashem and usually not crowded.

What's a shower?