I have a little trick that helps me : I go regularly to the Mikvah, at least on a week basis.

When I am into the Mikvah, I say a little prayer to Hashem that He helps me to stay sober, that He helps me to stay apart from lust and from no tzniut, and He helps me to guard my eyes.
And that this Mikveh can remove all the tumah inside me, all the tumah from my past falls.
And my Nechama will soak tahorah from the Mikvah.

If I have a fall, or I feel that the things are going more difficult, I try to go the Mikvah in the tomorrow morning. (It's like a sort of neder that I took upon me)

When I am in the MIkvah, it's very important to me to guard my eyes from seeing the others men, and to not seeing them naked (it's forbidden to see the milah from another man !). And I guard a behaviour adapted to the Mivkah : just doing my things, and not beginning to talk with others and to salute everybody.
In short : a discret behaviour.

Hope this will help somebody

Thanks for sharing that. It's hashgacha pratis that just this morning I read in this week's edition of Homodia's Inyan Magazine about the 5th yahrtzeit of Rabbi and Rebbitzin Holtzberg from Mumbai hy"d. So there's an article about how their little Moishele is doing. And it says that this 7-year old boy insists on going to the Mikva every single day.
Wow! May it be a zechus for the neshamos of his holy parents, and may he grow up to be a holy G-d fearing Jew.

Amen

MT

Not to make anyone feel down, but I started going to the Mikvah BEFORE I started masturbating and I go every Friday (almost) and sometimes I would fall Friday night, the real guarantee is not our actions but God alone.

Right. As it says:

מקוה ישראל ה' - מה מקוה מטהר את הטמאים אף הקב"ה מטהר את ישראל

I go to the mikvah, too, and see how great it is for taharah and for avodas Hashem in general.

But if going to the mikvah to stay clean brings one to think about "not thinking about sex", then going to the mikvah can make a guy fall much more often, too. If going to the mikvah is anything like being around yomim noro'im - Heaven knows the increased frequency of masturbation troubles that guys have shared about occuring davka around aseres y'mei Teshuvah!

For me, the way to ruin something as great and holy as mikvah and make it end up making me think even more about porn and sex is simple: put my trust in going to the mikvah to keep me clean! That makes it like throwing down the gauntlet...or if you will, like saying 'gira b'eina d'yitzra...a very, very bad idea.

Once I make it a 'weapon' against my lust problem, it becomes the lightning rod for desires and challenges. So I like a simpler approach, and use G-d and other things to help me stay sober - I use mikvah as a beautiful way to make everything I do even better and nicer. But never as a 'protection'.

Though some sforim may tell us that mikvah can be just that, I see that I am not mesugal l'kach. And clearly neither are many other guys!

And that's OK! The only question is: How do we use the tools Hashem gives us, best?

(was that ok, MT?)

Dov, you are absolutely right! I now only go to the Mikvah with thoughts about being Tahor and accepting Shabbat, not about being sexually active and wanting Kapparah, such thoughts while going to the Mikvah made me fall many a time...I am so grateful to Hashem that he had me stumble upon this website with such good Chevreh and wise people.

Dov wrote:


Yeah, better than the Kabbalistic ramble anytime.

MT

Is it that you think the kabalistic ramble just too revealing - or do you mean it is unintelligible?

I am agree with you, Dov.
Perhaps, my post was not clear.

The Mikvah must be a tool, given by Hashem, not a magic wand that erase all or a goal...

I wanted to point also the necessity to have a serious behavior when you are in the Mikvah. When I go to the Mikvah, this is not rare that people have a not adapted behaviour to the place, like kalut Rosh... It's something that can lose the kedusha of the Mikvah

Yeah, agreed that kalus rosh is not appropriate there. But on the other hand, I'd rather smile and be happy there, light and not serious and somber. There are guys who go there and do not shmooze at all...it's kind of creepy. Somber is nice maybe on Yom Kippur...but when standing around naked with other men, it can be a little weird. I figure that some folks deal with the weirdness of standing there naked with people all around in two main ways:

1- Kalus rosh - make light of it, don't be too serious here, cuz yes - this is very outside the norm that we are tzniyusdikeh ben Torahs walking around unclothed here, no?

2- Somberness and pretnding we don't see eachother - that makes it easier to take the abnormalness of the situation: "I just don't goreis you, so please don't goreis me, either, thank you....not that I noticed you, or anything! " There is also the feeling that, "If I smile at you, you may misinterpret it as me being sexually inappropriate." Hard to admit that exists sometimes, no?

But don't you think that there has got to be a happy medium? A way to say, "Hey, yeah it's abnormal to get undressed in front of each other - but this is a mikvah and not the hallway or street. So it's a-OK here. And we can say "Hi," and even be pleasant to each other here."

When I used to be religiously somber, it was just a way to build walls around me. I can't go back there, for that was the man who masturbated while being so frum... If we become anything new in recovery, it is 'less makpid' and less somber.

Hey - but I understood your post and agree that the kalus rosh is really out of place...but so is the somberness of the "I don't goreis you and please don't goreis me," crowd.

Dov wrote:


I think the Tzetel Koton says that one should do kabala only when he is free from lustful thoughts and feelings. Unfortunately I'm not there yet. So I stick to 'nigleh' - Chumash Rashi, Na"ch, Gemara, Halacha, Mussar, light Chassidus, etc. I assume since you are so fluent in kabala, you must have already 'filled your stomach with shas and poskim' as stipulated in the requirements for learning kabala. So I tip my hat (er, shtreimel) to you, Reb Dov. Maybe one day I'll be worthy as well.

Kol tuv

MT

I don't know about your Mikvah but the Mikvah I go to there is very little waiting time and it is a small room so if two people talk then it is really loud and even uncomfortable. And yes, there is plenty of Kalut Rosh, one of the things I dislike is when fathers bring their young undisciplined sons to the Mikvah...I feel there should be no talking in the Mikvah and there is a Dai'ah like that, everyone should be thinking to themselves, there is enough to think about in my eyes.

I hear you. But it is a great, great mitzvah to be light and pleasant at all times - with includes bing in a mikvah. And the RMBM does say that on'es demeanor should always be pleasant, calm, and friendly. Being that way does more to cleanse me and keep me close to Hashem than going to the mikvah does.

Rav Chayim Volozhiner used to prattle on and on when he was in the mikvah, talking to himself constantly, and with whoever was there if there was anyone else. He did that for a good reason, but certainly refraining from being pleasant and friendly is not an obligation in a mikvah.

Again, the somber thing builds walls.

And of all people, us frum chronic masturbaters are certainly great hiders and fakers. We have enough walls between us and the real, live people around us. The fewer walls the better, I suggest.

I understand your logic, Dov. But I think that we need to follow what our Rabbis and Sforim teach us (at least I do). And they clearly say that it is wrong to socialize in the Mikva. They instruct us to keep to ourselves and be done with it as quickly as possible. We can leave our pleasant and friendly conversations for the coffee room after the Mikva. And if we really want to follow the instructions of the holy Rabbis, they advise not to socialize at all before davening. They say that speaking mundane matters before davening is like physically pushing away fear of heaven.

Maybe you feel that such ("old-fashioned") hanhaga was not meant for addicts. But firstly, I don't know if that's true. And secondly, as you keep saying, not everyone here is an addict.

Hatzlacha

MT

Whew.

MT, do I need to take a pill, or do you? It feels like there is stuff going on beneath the surface (of the water?) here.

Well, I have been in mikva with many holy Rabbis on many erev Shabbosos and none of them have refrained from pleasant conversation in the dressing room area with the other people there.

Yes, in the morning before shacharis shmoozing is distracting and not a good thing. But even on Shabbos morning, I have not seen holy Rabbis totally refrain from pleasant conversation. And I do not think my Rabbis are not as holy as yours are.

But you are missing my entire point with bringing this issue up, MT. It's not about a specific halocha or inyan that I started posting this stuff about being light and pleasant in the the mikvah, at all. You write of trees, not the forest.

The reason I brought it up at all, was specifically because of who was writing against kalus rosh in the mikvah. I profiled the guy writing it and the way he wrote it. Yes, I did. Mea culpa! And of course real kalus rosh is inappropriate in a mikvah, and is actually not recommended anywhere. (And probably the sforim that make a point to assur it in the mikvah are very the ones that say not to have it anywhere else, either. We don't really avoid any and all kalus rosh all the time, so why is it so unacceptable to this very guy in the mikvah? I am not looking down on him at all, just taking a chance that something will get uncovered and help him out, thats all.)

My gut (a thing you will not find in sforim [I hope! ;) ]) told me that there are many of us who are oh so very quiet about our mikvah-going - at least quiet inside, cuz of our shame. We go there and it is such a serious matter for us, washing off the sperm, you know. Our 'Torah' does a very, very poor job - for us - of alleviating the deep, crushing shame. And we do not see at all how crushing it is until we are out from under it. And mikvah and teshuvah are neutered by it, in the long run.

I know that path: "I just masturbated and thinking of my zera levatola the entire time I am in there, which feels very holy indeed...but the people actually being real and normal in here, make me feel really uncomfortable. I really want privacy - to be alone with my thoughts and do not want to be interacted with or noticed in the mikvah. I'd rather hide behind the references in sforim that support being silent and somber in the mikvah - and then look down on those who are irritating me, so that I feel even safer in my hole of shame."

I trust these two men's intentions are purer than mine, and I respect them completely for what they are doing and for posting here. And I wanted to write a bit al-tzad that the good fellow was perhaps, just maybe, a bit too serious and shameful about his presence at the mikvah. Even if he did not see what I was writing at all, I hoped that either he does not need to hear it at all cuz my gut is wrong - or that he gets the idea planted in his head somewhere that there may be another thing going on here than a 'halachic/mussar' issue of 'kalus rosh'.

I really believed that I was not judging Lahavot aish or David26r. I believe they, and you, are sincere. But I was just guessing that there might be a tzad of shame operating here, that's all. So I did not say, "Hey, you are suferring from xyz, and way too guilty and need to just grow up and stop hiding behing your interpretation of halocha." And thats you came and blew the cover off, and now I might look a lot more judgemental than I am. Cuz spelling it out kills all the subtlety.

Nu.

Do you understand where I am coming from yet? Can you at least accept that getting wrapped up in the trees can be a distraction from the main goal that is much, much bigger?

Even if they are not addicts, many of the people here are chronic masturbaters. And any frum Jew who is (guiltily and desperately) chasing porn and masturbating is much more of a liar than he is a rosho. I know that life well and relate. And the lying starts with ourselves. We misinterpret the Torah, we misinterpret our parents, we misinterpret ourselves. And we often get wrapped up in tikunim and chumras, losing the big picture. Doing anything else would be unfamiliar - the shame is so familiar, like a pig in the cool mud, we avoid getting out of it at all costs. People in pain often speak in code.

Can you see the forest for the trees? Do you hear why this issue may be more relevant than the minutiae that people bring up?