DC,

Nothing about your situation shocks me, nothing. It is precisely where I was before starting on GYE, precisely. In fact, if anything I took it further than you have thus far. From the way you relate to your addiction as being a surrogate female partner, to the consequences it has had on your married life, to how that has made you feel and the vicious cycle you are in. I have been there, done that and got the T Shirt and so it seems have you. The only difference between us just now is that I have made the step to turn a vicious cycle into a virtuous one and you are still in the vicious one.

The only thing that amazes me is the candour with which you write and clarity with which you think. It seems you are in no way clouded in your thoughts or confused about your intentions and despite this you stay in the cycle that you are in. For this reason I feel free to speak to you in the way that I am about to, from one struggling yid to another, harsh words, but encased in love - please understand that.

DC, It is time for a reality check.

The reason things are so bad for you right now in life in general and in your married life specifically is AS A DIRECT RESULT OF YOUR ACTIONS.

Every day you have a choice:

Work hard to raise yourself a fraction higher in your spiritual path or drag yourself further into the mire.

The problem is that every day that you choose the latter you put yourself 2 days back from where you are now. The day it took you getting there and the day it will take you to climb back.

The flip side is that every day you choose to raise yourself up you are 2 days ahead and more than that, you prove to yourself with each passing day that you really can do it.

If you choose to stay in the vicious cycle, things WILL ONLY GET WORSE

I'm sorry to say it, but it's the truth. You have to break the cycle DC, it's the only way to improve your life in every respect and to gain back your self respect. GYE is the lifeline that can help you turn the corner and every single one of us here are your fan club cheering you on for every positive step you make in the right direction. You feel guilt, shame, embarrasment? You think the guys on here do not like those words?

I say it is not about 'not liking'. It is about 'not helpful'.

If you are truly guilty - that is for H" to decide. How you feel, if it's negative is just another tool of the Y"H. Ignore how you feel and take action TODAY to improve your life.

PG as long as I have breath in my lungs and blood in my veins, I will be here for you to help you make the right choices and give you support in your battle, but do this for yourself. For the sake of your future, on this world and the world to come.

Make your first positive step and make it now.

Remeber there is a reason that recovery is all about one day at a time.

YOU CAN DO IT

Keep in touch,

Haleivi

DC,

Thanks for the crystal clear qualification.  Yep your an addict.....and so am I. 

I have felt, if not expressed, most of what you described and there is no question, once it is down in black on white that it indicates insanity, hence steps 1 and 2.

Thank God, I now am in a space where I can see that insanity fairly clearly and absolutely want nothing to do with it.  Lust is crazy and will make me crazy.  Its the problem and not the solution. 

I sincerely appreciate your post.  It helps me remember the crazy things I have thought, done and fantasized I could do. 

I hope that God restores you and us to a full recovery!

Thank you so much haleivi.

Those words were in no way too harsh.  They were just a fresh air of emes.  Believe nothing you told me is a chiddush, as I realize they were not meant to be a chiddush, they were just a pleasant reminder.  (as far as guilt goes, you misunderstood me. not for now.)

Jooboy,
I contacted your friend and he gave me the number of his SA friend here in Israel.  I have not had a chance yet to call.  But thanks so much.

Anyway, last night I was feeling so down, but yet there was a deep strong feeling within me that I can do it as long as I want to.  I am not waiting for G-d's approval, I already have his commandment to do so, and I have his promise that he will help me as long as I try.  And I know that I really have not tried hard enough.  After getting into another fight, my wife and I sat down and had a real heart to heart conversation last night. And I think we really began washing away all the wounds.  And as halevei so correctly stated, all the issues stems from me.  Some thing she said really touched me so much. I asked her what the old me was like. She said the old me never got upset at her.  And there is was staring me in th face. in a few short months, I have so damaged my character. But if that is whom I used to be, then that is whom I can be again. 
After the conversation we gave each other a nice big hug and agreed to start working on our once wonderful marriage.  I went to Maariv late that night at 11.45, and said a very clear vidui for my misconduct.  I asked Hashem over and over again for assistance. I promised to jump on the helicopter this time. 
I got home and got into bed, ready to go to sleep, and my wife surprised me with a pleasant surprise. Something she never does. She never seems in the mood.  And yet, somehow last night there was some magic in the air that brought out our suppressed love for each other.  I looked up to shamayim and said: Thanks for taking me back!

OK, sobriety, Here we go.

-DC

destructive cycle wrote on 27 Jul 2010 15:04:

DC,

When you mentioned character changing, what comes to mind is - you should join Duvid Chaims group that just started.  I am new at the 12 step program. one thing i learned is- it's not only about addiction. it's about character. How we deal throughout the day. It's getting closer to Hashem. And through that we fix our issues.

Thanks david.
Right now the phone calls do not fit into my schedule.  I hope to try to get into a live SA group instead.

I really want to thank all you guys for all your support.  Every post gives me so  much. And I can assure you that there are no waisted words.  I read them over and over again.

-DC

BEAUTIFUL!!!

Thanks for the feedback.  It helps to know that a difference is being made.

continued hatzlacha

DC there is so much to say reading this last set of posts don't know if i'll capture all my thoughts (especially since I'm writing from a BB). First as an aside I'm glad to see Haleivi is back in full form. Second, make sure you return your wife's beautiful gesture quickly. Let her know u mean it when you say you're going to change you really mean it (this will also help concretize it for yourself as well). Buy her flowers in middle of the week. Write her note with it telling her how special she is, apologize for your actions and tell her you intend to make it up to her. Third, consider changing your name. Destructive Cycle is focused on the problem. The new you has got to focus on the solution. Fourth, when you feel yourself getting weak (and we all have ups and downs) reach out to one of us. If nothing else these posts show that there are a lot of people here who want to help you succeed and who are true friends unlike any porn image you've ever seen. Hatzlacha once DC but now on the straight path.

I read your post about late Mairiv, deep kovonoh, and a wife who loves you and forgives you, and shows it with her actions.  I am so moved.  Undeserved love.  You'd have to be a stone not to be touched (and today I feel pretty stoney).

So now you know you can be clean for so long and then fall into a life that becomes utterly unmanageable, into feeling crazy and doing crazy things that could destroy a life with such a woman as is yours.

OK, so you learned something that nothing and nobody could ever teach you.  I don't know what that lesson is.  Only you and Hashem know what the lesson is.  It's buried somewhere deep inside this anguish you're going through. It's in there.  Maybe you can find it and "bottom out from on top".  It was a specially made, a tailor-made lesson just for you.  This lesson only you can understand in its most profound significance.  This is Hashem's unbelievably precious gift to you, His Chesed as manifest as a rock...and, of course, His Gevurah too.  Can you take all that Love in???

And His love is NOT CONDITIONAl.  We couldn't earn it in ten thousand lifetimes. It's not, "we do hishtadlut" and He'll come and help.  We can't lift a pinky without His help.  We are given the choice, however, to lift the pinky or not.  Yes, you know all this, Chassidus 101.  Sorry if I talked down to you.  I'm actually talking to myself, too.

So now I turn you back to Haleivi 76, to Jooboy, and ur-a-jew, and David 712, and..., and..., and....  We are cheering for you, we are davening for you, think of the simcha we could make when you hit 90 days just by making it one day at a time, and then another day, and on and on. 

Nu, 1) Just for today. 2) Think about your wife who wants YOU back.  3) Think about all of us out here who want YOU back.  4)  Think how happy you will make Hashem when you choose to take the first baby step in the direction, just even in the direction of staying clean for just today, for just an hour of today, for just holding out for twenty minutes today.  Think how happy you will make Him.  That you now WANT to make the turn! 6) Go back and re-read Haleivi76's post.

If you and your wife could find your love again, all the worlds, all the melachim, all of us at GYE, Hashem, all the trees of the forest and the creatures of the sea, will rejoice in your embrace.

So it's one baby step today.  Because you want to.  And because the whole universe is here to help you.  If you don't believe it, try it and see for yourself.  Can't cost you anything to just give it a twenty minute delay, or an hour, or just for today a whole day. What's to lose.  What if it's true?  The whole universe and its Holy Creator are here, right now, in the depths of your emerging self, longing for your own unique union with Hashem, right now you could close the door on your "best fiend".  You could do it.  You can do it. 

You need anything, you get hold of me.  Hertzach?!

Wow!
I am amazed at the outpour of love on this site. Thanks ur-a-jew and 1daat for those beautiful posts. 

ur-a-jew,
Your suggestion for buying flowers and writing letters is very true, but we need to be careful not to settle for shallowness.  At this point my wife does not need my flowers (and she will tell me that), nor my words, what she needs is a real change in me.  She needs to see a real change in how I interact with her. But not just that .  It does not stop there.  She wants and needs to see me live life properly. She knows the potential that I have.  And she wants to see me live life accordingly.  She wants to see my enthusiasm for Torah back. She wants to see my chidushei Torah again.  She wants to see divrei torah at the table.  She knows as much I as I know that my real self is dependent on  my spiritual life. When I am properly connected to Torah and mitzvos, then it all flows easily from there.  And I am sure this is something we can all relate to.  My original downfall started with me veering off path a bit in shmiras hamitzvos in general.  It starts with coming to night seder a bit late to coming very late, to falling asleep in night seder, to skipping night seder to skippinng maariv bminyan and davening at home to skipping maariv all together, to davening mincha at home to skipping mincha to missing morning seder to start looking at woman casually to looking at women once in a while for pleasure to gazing at women to seeking out women and eventually eventually eventually full blown pornagraphy to phone sex to ...
But yes, I will still do the superficial things just to show that I am coming back. 
Your suggestion for my name change is right on the mark.  I was actually thinking about that before you mentioned. So I guess we were mechavein to each other.  I hope to change it in a few days. Any suggestions for the new name?  The reason for the name is because the first step of recovery is acknowledging you have a problem.  Yes, you are right that we cannot live in the problem.  But if we ignore the problem and forget to "magdir" the problem, the solution is much harder to accomplish.  This is true not only for healing ourselves from this addiction but for anything in life. Another reason for holding on to the name for a few more days is to remind me how easy it is to slip back in. Once you walk into the danger zone, the cycle is on and yuo go for a major spin. Pulling out it is no simple. 
Thanks for suggestion for calling for help.  But now that I have walked out of the destructive cycle and into the land of sobriety and recivery, weaknesses run away.  Desires for porn subside.  She will not return now for a long time.  I am sure of it.I know this monster all too well.  Right now I have to renew my commitment day by day, stronger and stronger.  I need to reinforce within myself that no matter what I cannot look at porn.  This is true just for my sanity and because I was commanded. I need to live my life based on my values.  And B"H I know my values and have lots of values. I just don't always live by them. 



1daat, thanks for that beautiful idea.  I do suggest reading chovos halevavos shaar bitachon to get a more traitional approach on the role of bitachon in smiras hamtizvos and chovos halevovos as opposed to parnassa.  He makes clear distinctions and it may prove to be helpful to understand these differences. Recovery is not neccasarily dependant on theses issues.  But aleviating confusion certainly helps pave the way for proper recovery.  also, be sure to read my posts on this thread.

To all my dear friends,
This whole experience has been very devastating to me, especially to my ego. I am happy to see that I am really coming to full close on it as I regain my sanity.  I will tell what was the most difficult.  The disbelief that I fell back into this.  After working so hard on recovery and I really grew so much. Then to fall.  There was so much of me that did not have that energy of "starting over".  To a certain degree I feel like I am still ten steps ahead of all of you.  I have been where all you are today and beyond. I used to have people call me for advise on getting out of porn addiction.  Yes, I became a number to call. And when I fall back into it, I stopped taking calls. I said, how can I help someone else when I can't even help myself.  I must be a fake.  And the self pity grew and grew. But what I tasted over the past few months was somewhere where many of you have not been yet (and I hope none of you ever get there) and that is relapse.  As I mentioned, relapse is worse than the addiction itself.  If you look at the people of this site that experienced relapse after great successes you will find that very few if them ever got back up. The same vigor that got them into recovery the first place is gone.  BUT I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO BE A STATISTIC. Relapse has all the horrible emotions multiplied by 10.  During my initail recovery there was so much euphora on the newfound recovery. There was hope.  There was a sense of finally, I did it.  There was excitement with discovery of new principles that people shared with me.  One of the greatest joys and pleasures in this world is a chiddush. And during my initail recovery I was overflowed wih chiddshim.  These chiddushim were so much more exciting than porn.  But recovery after relapse lacks all that excietement.  There is no euphora.  It is all about living life according to the will of Hashem and that is it.  Because if I live life according to my will, I will certainly choose insanity over sanity.  But there is a purpose to this world. And there is a goal. And that goal has been layed down neatly for us to understand. Our task is clearly defined. And our obligation to life live accordingly is unquestioned (at least according to Orthodox Jews).  So recovery after relapse is more challenging but more real.  And all of you can tap into this energy if you look for it.  You all need to remind yourselves over and pver again, what you are doing in this world.  Life is not about excitement. We do need that to perform to our fullest, but excitement should never be our motivation. And so many addicts in recovery fool themselves into thinking that they are cured, when in fact they are continuing down the dangerous path of motivation through excitement. I do what I enjoy. And they do not realize that what motovates them into recovery is because "it feels good" the same way that same feeling motivates them into porn. Please understand what I am telling you today. This will a key for life.
Some of you reading this are probably laughing saying, "what a fool.  He is only two days into recovery and he thinks is finsished and he is alreay giving us advise." But my dear friends, let me teach you a big secret in recovery. And you can find this yesod in a wonderful site called rational recovery. Recovery is an event not a process.  It speaks for itself for those who have tasted it.

I have so much to share, but I gotta get back to life.

Looking for a new name, dc

DC,

It's great to hear things are going so well.

I'm a bit confused about the statement:



I go to SA meetings and from everything I hear it appears to be a process.  If it was an event we wouldn't relapse ever.  And I know people relapse in recovery all the time.  It sounds like you have a lot of prior experience in recovery.  Would you be able to explain more about what you mean that it is an event?

DC or SP (for Straight Path) because in my view the "problem" is the cycle that keeps on going around.  The solution is to go on a straight path.  Sure there are ups and downs but the point is you want to be getting closer to your destination and not simply going in circles.

destructive cycle wrote on 28 Jul 2010 09:16:

I'm glad to see that notwithstanding your view that buying flowers and letters can be construed as "shallow" and "superficial" you will do them anyway.  Hate to get back to basics like Marrriage 101 but those "superficial" expressions of love and appreciation form the foundation of a solid marriage.  Of course, you want to build a big edifice on that foundation by your "enthusiasm for Torah" "chidushei Torah" "divrei torah at the table" and a vibrant "spiritual life."  But woman need and crave the three basic A's of Attention, Appreciation and Affection.  So whether or not you consider them superficial make sure you do them (constantly).  Moreover, it is obvious from your posts that you have a koach in you're ability to write.  Use that Koach in writing to your wife as well.  A letter that is written from the depth of your heart in which you express your appreciation for sticking it out with you and for everything good that she does is certainly anything but "superficial" or "shallow."  Hakoras hatov is a basic and fundamental principle. 

And once I'm at it, since it is bein hazmanim make sure you devote some time to your relationship with your wife.  Work on reconnecting.  Also because you will be busy with spirituality in Elul plan now how you're going to be mekayim the mitzvah d'oraysa of being misameach es ishto with clothing and jewelry.  I doubt I'm telling you anything new but we all need occasional reminders (myself included).

destructive cycle wrote on 28 Jul 2010 09:16:



Maybe I'm misreading you on this one.  But it almost sounds like you're saying I can let down my guard for a couple of months until the cycle starts again.  If it is what you're saying that would be a terrible mistake.  As you said before the process is gradual and creeps upon you.  My own advice is to be reaching out every day even when you're feeling strong (if nothing else by giving chizuk to others that are feeling weak -- one of the best sobriety tools around) and this way you won't allow the disease entrance back into you're life.  And, even if it does manage to creep back in you'll have built up a large support network that you can immediately turn to so the cycle is cut off.

Hatzlacha Rabbah.

Firstly, I want to thank you all for joining me on this crazy journey and providing me with advice and chizuk.  I could not have gotten off the ground with all of you.  I really appreciate every word. And most importantly, the tremendous love.

Jooboy,
semantically, you are correct.  Allow me to explain.  I like to break down recovery into two main components. The first is sobriety and the second is the healing process. Sobriety is the stage where we remove the actual addictive behavior and misconduct.  For us that means to stop looking at pornography. For a frum jew, it means complete abstinence.  The healing process is where we deal with the character defects that both "caused" the addiction and that came as a result of the addiction.  We learn to do facelift on character traits.  We learn the proper response to stress, for example.  For the standard porn addict, we need to deal with our underlying need and cravings for sex.  We need to deal with our warped way of thinking and demands of sex.  We need to understand the correct role and perspective of what sex is, and what it isn't. 
It is important to understand these difference, especially when defininng ones goal in recovery. And yes, you need goals in recovery.  Without goals you will work hard, put in lots of effort but get nothing accomplished.  Believe me on this one.  So the first thing is to define the term recovery.  Different recovery programs put different emphasis on recovery.  For instance, SA deals mostsly with what I call the "the healing process". The beahvior is expected to be removed shortly into the program during the "surrender" stage.  The early AA's saw this as being a simple process.  The remaining steps deal with the core. The focus is not on the behavior, but on the underlying character. It is unfortunate that so many that attend 12 steps never understand this.  Thesponsor keeps pushing the addict to continue the steps and have faith in the progam, but not realizing the program will not work unless ytou first let go and surrender.  And letting go is expected from the addict himself.  No process.  An event.  Onlt then, can the true healing process begin. This yesod is b'pheirush in the big book and SA white book.  This is the meaning of Let Go Let G-d.
In a CBT based system, the focus is on the behavior. What thoughts lead to the behavior and learning to conrol that behavior. When I used the term "recovery" above, I was mistakenly referring to the behavior.  I say mistakingly, because I a firm believer that true recovery needs the "healing process". That is why I love the 12 steps so much. (I know I know jooboy, I have to call your friends friend. Don't worry I will.)
So what did I mean when I said that recovery is an event, not a process.  I was referring to removing behavior stage.  There is a moment of truth when a person sees clearly what he is supposed to do and that he is control of his actions.  At this moment you realize that G-d gave you free will and you CAN and MUST exercise it. Or, in SA terms you all is a sudden gain sanity.  And really what this event is, is simply a decision and more importantly a realistic and honest commitment to sobriety.
But that is just stage one.  Then comes the healing process, which is a process. And that is what you were correctly taught in SA.  Thank you asking me to clarify this issue. 
Regarding your question how relapse is possible, that is a good question.  So allow me to share with you another important principle.  This is the mistake of the auto pilot.  We all wish to go on auto pilot. We would love to get to a stage where everything just goes.  We will automatically be disgusted with porn.  We will automatically never look at porn again.  But nothing is farther from the truth.  Life is not about auto pilot. We are responsible to keep our feet on the peddles at all times. We will need to constantly exert effor t and ecisions in our day to day life.  We can always become fools again. And now I know this from personal experience.  It is scary, let me tell you.  The low places that I fell in the past few months. We abondon our commitment.  And that why is good you are in SA, where you will be constantly reminded of your commitment.  And really at the core is understanding the true meaning of another controversial AA slogan: Once an addict always an addict. I never really understood this.  I mean, I was not an addict. And I wasn;t fooling myself.  I didn't behave anything like an addict once in recovery.  And the idea is sure, we can change ourselves or rewire ourselves (whatver term you like). But somehow, those behvior patterns are simply supressed in the subconcous, ready to obe releashed at any moment.So beware. 
Jooboy, I hope I address your questions correctly and explained. And I hope my information will be helpful to you.  Now that I tasted the full cycle included with a full fledge relapse, I need to warn and educate the new to recovery people, and hopefully I can help save some lives.  It is my way of saying thank you to all of you for helping me. Because I do not know how I could have done it with out you.

OK, now on to "ur-a-jew", for whatever time is remaining. Here we go.
I Love the name Straight Path.  I will give it great consideration.  Thanks for the suggestion. 
When I wrote "She needs to see a real change in how I interact with her. But not just that .  It does not stop there." I was referring to the three AA's Meaning she would liek to see that stuff. But right now she is worried about me as a person.  This is what is on her mind.  She doesn't want me skipping nigt seder and schmoozing with her all night.  She needs to see the husband she married back.  But yes, I need to work on the interaction with her, and the A's.  Regarding letters, don't worry I have written many many letters over the years. I am the king of letters. Sometimes, she gets a bit nervous when I write so much , because she is concerned it is anoth way of  me becoming withdrawn. She even asks me from time to time if I write these letters more for me or for her.  She feels letters lack the dynamics of a live relationship.  She says not that she doesn't appreciate them, but she needs more of me as a person, as a relationship.  But like I said, I will stil do these things of buying flowers and letters.  But for me, sometimes I get too focused on that stuff and feel like I was yotzeh, and not dealing with the fundamental relationship. 


Nope, didn't mean tha.  I never thought that, and I am big believer in increasing your guard day by day.  Actually doing it is another thing. And being realistic with oneself that they are becoming weaker and weaker is another thing.  I just meant, porn will be off my radar screen in reality.  I will still do my best to grow day by day and remove myself farther and farther away. But I do not anticipate those feeling weak days anymore. 

Thank you all for joing me here today.

I love you all!

Have a great day!

thanks for the clarification, now it makes a lot more sense

Thanks jooyboy.
Hey, by the way, I was looking around for your official thread but could not find one.  Do you have one? I was feeling bad that you kept coming to me and i never visited you. But it seems there is no where to visit you.

1daat wrote on 28 Jul 2010 06:12:


destructive cycle wrote on 28 Jul 2010 09:16:


Seems to me that perek gimel supports the simple minded way I was expressing the idea.  I am certainly nowhere near as educated as you, and so I could well not be understanding anything he says at all.  If so, my apologies for even thinking about "lecturing" you.  I was completely out of line.

You are able to make many very refined distinctions and differentiations that are a wonder to read.  Me? I am always the last to understand a moshul or a kal v'chomer, for example.  I seem to always be saying, "Huh, I don't get it".  I am blessed that I have one chavrusah in particular, a talmud chochom like yourself, who is so unbelievably patient with me, and refuses to go on until he is certain that I understand.  Why he leyns with me is beyond me.  But he does.  Such love and patience and affection for someone far less gifted than himself.  And let me tell you, when we leyn we're rockin and rollin.  So he must be getting SOMETHING.  Also, I am three times as old as him.  Go figure.  Maybe someday I'll talk to him about this.  Though I have told him how much I appreciate him taking his time to leyn with me and at a pace I can handle.

Now every once in a while he asks me a question.  You know, right in the middle of a posuk, and out of nowhere comes, "Let me ask you something...".  And out comes a question from left field.  And usually I have to ask for a second to think about it.  And then after asking H" for help, I say my say.  And he is so totally focused on what I'm saying.  And he usually says nothing for a few seconds. And very often he'll say something like, "Hmmm.  I understand".  And then he'll look out the window for a couple of seconds, thinking things over I'd guess, and then we just go back to leyning.

He comes from a great line of Rabbis.  He is called on by Gedolim to carry out important missions.  Can you imagine, he sits with me and leyns like I'm his equal.  I have heard him get into machloicos with other guys.  Such unbelievable erudition.  You posts remind me of what he sounds like when they take off.  Me? I sit, and listen, and understand only a little.  So I ask questions right in the middle of their hammering out their disagreement on an important yet seemingly trivial fine point.  I ask because I don't understand.  And never, ever have these guys who are head and shoulders above me in scholarship, depth and reasoning ability, ever done anything but stop right in the middle of things, and bring me up to speed on the discussion.  And then, believe it or not, after waiting for me to give a nod or something that says I understand, only then do they resume.  This is a gentle thoughtful group of brilliant yiddin(as least they seem brilliant to me).

So, why do I go on about this?  because in matters of recovery, as Bill put it, "much understanding availed us nothing".

When an am ha'aretz la Toirah needs to do t'shuvah, and doesn't have a clue what the "right" way to do it is, he is hobbled by his lack of education and skilled relationship to his chochma.  He sits, and cries, and his ego collapses, and in the quiet he experiences a truth, experiences, though he can't understand it, that Hashem would "meshoch chasdecha l'yodecha".  He just knows, and knows the Chesed, and weeps. 

Maybe someday I'll get so simple.  One day at a time.