I’d like to be vulnerable as well; vulnerability breeds vulnerability

I believe to a degree, I knew that this would start a debate, I was being pretty controversial, and maybe that's what I wanted. I enjoy a good back-and-forth. I apologize if you or anyone was hurt because of this. This leads to the following dillema.
Maybe you can help me with this, YKW.

Dealing with someone who suffers from religious pain is very different than working through false cognitions in therapy for something like depression. In the case of depression, it’s often enough for a fellow sufferer to empathize, and for the therapist to work through the distortions and triggers in a safe, structured way.

But when the pain stems from religious beliefs, I think empathy alone isn’t sufficient. These beliefs often come wrapped in the authority of Torah and spiritual obligation, which makes them feel unchallengeable. For example, if someone believes that Hashem wants them to sit and learn Torah day and night, and that anything less is believed, then yes, we can (and must) empathize. Living with such a demanding and punishing image of Hashem is incredibly painful.

But in my opinion, empathy is only part of it. To really help, we sometimes need to gently offer permission to believe in a different version of Hashem, a compassionate, loving one. This requires some level of intellectual engagement, especially if the person believes this harsh view is Daas Torah, taught to them directly by all the gedolim throughout the generations.

Of course, there’s a fine line between offering healing Torah and giving a full-on shiur klali, which can feel irrelevant or even invalidating. The goal is never to debate (although that's fun too for some), but to open a window, subtly and sensitively, that maybe, just maybe, there’s another way to see things. I believe I may have crossed that line recently, and if so, I apologize.

But I’d really love to hear from the oilam, and from someone in particular (you know who), whether this resonates. And also, where is that line between helpful Torah and a beis midrash-style discussion? How do we offer clarity without sounding like we’re trying to “prove” something?

Great point.

I've found (personally and with Talmidim) that validation, understanding (real emotional understanding), and acceptance are safe and effective tools.

bright wrote on 03 Jul 2025 04:43:

My Brother, I think we all need this.
You can't really instruct someone how to love. They could go through the motions, but that doesn't mean they feel anything. Someone has to help them learn where to look, and then they can hopefully find that relationship you speak of. Taking away pain but living comatose is still a pretty desolate existence. Removing (or lessening) an inhibitor is meaningful when it results in a path forward, in leaving a space for progress. I can also live while bringing that pain with me, or some of it, if I can figure that out. We all do that already, to varying degrees. 
What I hope I'm sort of saying is that living isn't a bonus that follows not dying - living is the whole point.

Opening my eyes won't allow me to see anything if the window is shut. Neither will opening the window help me much if my eyes remain closed. You need both AND there has to be something to see. If I don't figure out and feel what G-d looks like for me, then everything falls short. 

It's not my place to speak about trauma, abuse, or anything of the sort. I'm not intending to answer or solve anyone's past CV. All I mean it say is that what you are ultimately looking for is something that everyone needs to discover. How to do that, each person must find their own way.

I don't know if I'm even making sense. These feelings are difficult to try and put into words. Life hurts and then you die is pretty horrible. Life doesn't hurt and then you die is only slightly better. Life is what it is, but I lived - that's what I need to figure out.

Precisely my point. Yes the person will have to internalize it. But like the Satmar Ruv said a machlokes lsheim shomayim sofo lehiskayem, if each party is saying their doing it leshem shomayim that fight will never end. If one believes that this is just how it is and doesn't know or isn't introduced to other possibilities it can be an exercise in futility to help them feel better. What would you say if someone told you, "Life is supposed to be miserable, Im a bal aveira."?

If you are talking about someone OTD the first thing is validation and love. Their struggles with Yiddishkeit are usually secondary to their struggles with life which are usually because of the way they were treated by others. If you are talking about someone who isn't OTD then it is validation and encouragement as we frequently do on the forum.

The Rambam is Shmona Perakim explains that sin of Moshe in this weeks Parsha was that the Yidden understood from his anger that Hashem was angry at them when he in fact wasn't.
What a message of responsibility to every Mechanech, Rebbi and parent. The student or child naturally places the teacher or parent on a pedestal, therefore seeing them as a representing Hashem and the Torah. When anger comes the students way, even if not expressly in the name of, it effects their perception of who Hashem is and what the Torah means.

bright wrote on 03 Jul 2025 04:43:

Spot on, brother. 
You are accentuating the difficulty of the sensitive balancing/juggling act that you are asking those of those who are capable of trying to bridge the "gap" you spoke of in your original post. Not simple to find the delicate balance while being supportive, sensitive and empathetic. 

It's a lot easier to merely empathize, but it often wont truly help the person. Pointing out distortions, opening up new ideas, all without lecturing and allthewhile trying to preserve dignity and exercise care, gently showing the right way without repeating the mistakes of those that went before, all this without truly knowing what the guy is dealing with, because he hasn't opened up fully .... it aint easy.

It's easier to give up without trying, especially if you don't want to do any harm inadvertently...    
But doing what's easier hasn't helped anyone lately...

Real life usually doesnt have easy answers. 

Thanks for being a Bright spot in a world that's often full of shadows. 
chaimoigen

alex94 wrote on 03 Jul 2025 18:33:

That is an amazing source! Really powerful in understanding myself and my responsibility to others...

chaimoigen wrote on 03 Jul 2025 22:15:

It definitely helps, especially when you give it:) But for real healing to start, yes, we have to take some risks...