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TOPIC: Religious pain 3895 Views
Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 04:43 #438379
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I’d like to be vulnerable as well; vulnerability breeds vulnerability I believe to a degree, I knew that this would start a debate, I was being pretty controversial, and maybe that's what I wanted. I enjoy a good back-and-forth. I apologize if you or anyone was hurt because of this. This leads to the following dillema. Dealing with someone who suffers from religious pain is very different than working through false cognitions in therapy for something like depression. In the case of depression, it’s often enough for a fellow sufferer to empathize, and for the therapist to work through the distortions and triggers in a safe, structured way. But when the pain stems from religious beliefs, I think empathy alone isn’t sufficient. These beliefs often come wrapped in the authority of Torah and spiritual obligation, which makes them feel unchallengeable. For example, if someone believes that Hashem wants them to sit and learn Torah day and night, and that anything less is believed, then yes, we can (and must) empathize. Living with such a demanding and punishing image of Hashem is incredibly painful. But in my opinion, empathy is only part of it. To really help, we sometimes need to gently offer permission to believe in a different version of Hashem, a compassionate, loving one. This requires some level of intellectual engagement, especially if the person believes this harsh view is Daas Torah, taught to them directly by all the gedolim throughout the generations. Of course, there’s a fine line between offering healing Torah and giving a full-on shiur klali, which can feel irrelevant or even invalidating. The goal is never to debate (although that's fun too for some), but to open a window, subtly and sensitively, that maybe, just maybe, there’s another way to see things. I believe I may have crossed that line recently, and if so, I apologize. But I’d really love to hear from the oilam, and from someone in particular (you know who), whether this resonates. And also, where is that line between helpful Torah and a beis midrash-style discussion? How do we offer clarity without sounding like we’re trying to “prove” something? |
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Nothing good grows in the dark.
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Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 05:50 #438383
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Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 13:30 #438390
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Today is yesterday's tomorrow.
The yetzarim a person has the most trouble dealing with are his most powerful God-given tools for developing his potential and achieving shleimus. It doesn't matter how big the number is, only that today it is going up by one. There is no "just" when it comes to lust. Please feel free to reach out. I'd appreciate connecting with you (via GYE, email, or phone - whatever floats your boat) A little about me: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/412971-I-Want-to-Help-Others |
Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 17:40 #438405
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Nothing good grows in the dark.
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Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 17:46 #438407
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Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 18:33 #438408
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My thread guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/433695-Hi-Im-Alex
Feel free to PM |
Re: Religious pain 03 Jul 2025 22:15 #438429
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bright wrote on 03 Jul 2025 04:43:
I’d like to be vulnerable as well; vulnerability breeds vulnerability I believe to a degree, I knew that this would start a debate, I was being pretty controversial, and maybe that's what I wanted. I enjoy a good back-and-forth. I apologize if you or anyone was hurt because of this. This leads to the following dillema. Dealing with someone who suffers from religious pain is very different than working through false cognitions in therapy for something like depression. In the case of depression, it’s often enough for a fellow sufferer to empathize, and for the therapist to work through the distortions and triggers in a safe, structured way. But when the pain stems from religious beliefs, I think empathy alone isn’t sufficient. These beliefs often come wrapped in the authority of Torah and spiritual obligation, which makes them feel unchallengeable. For example, if someone believes that Hashem wants them to sit and learn Torah day and night, and that anything less is believed, then yes, we can (and must) empathize. Living with such a demanding and punishing image of Hashem is incredibly painful. But in my opinion, empathy is only part of it. To really help, we sometimes need to gently offer permission to believe in a different version of Hashem, a compassionate, loving one. This requires some level of intellectual engagement, especially if the person believes this harsh view is Daas Torah, taught to them directly by all the gedolim throughout the generations. Of course, there’s a fine line between offering healing Torah and giving a full-on shiur klali, which can feel irrelevant or even invalidating. The goal is never to debate (although that's fun too for some), but to open a window, subtly and sensitively, that maybe, just maybe, there’s another way to see things. I believe I may have crossed that line recently, and if so, I apologize. But I’d really love to hear from the oilam, and from someone in particular (you know who), whether this resonates. And also, where is that line between helpful Torah and a beis midrash-style discussion? How do we offer clarity without sounding like we’re trying to “prove” something? Spot on, brother. You are accentuating the difficulty of the sensitive balancing/juggling act that you are asking those of those who are capable of trying to bridge the "gap" you spoke of in your original post. Not simple to find the delicate balance while being supportive, sensitive and empathetic. It's a lot easier to merely empathize, but it often wont truly help the person. Pointing out distortions, opening up new ideas, all without lecturing and allthewhile trying to preserve dignity and exercise care, gently showing the right way without repeating the mistakes of those that went before, all this without truly knowing what the guy is dealing with, because he hasn't opened up fully .... it aint easy. It's easier to give up without trying, especially if you don't want to do any harm inadvertently... But doing what's easier hasn't helped anyone lately... Real life usually doesnt have easy answers. Thanks for being a Bright spot in a world that's often full of shadows. chaimoigen |
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Please feel free to reach out anytime at chaim.oigen@gmail.com
Perhaps you'd enjoy seeing Chaim's Oigen |
Re: Religious pain 04 Jul 2025 01:04 #438439
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Nothing good grows in the dark.
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Re: Religious pain 04 Jul 2025 01:06 #438440
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chaimoigen wrote on 03 Jul 2025 22:15:
bright wrote on 03 Jul 2025 04:43: I’d like to be vulnerable as well; vulnerability breeds vulnerability I believe to a degree, I knew that this would start a debate, I was being pretty controversial, and maybe that's what I wanted. I enjoy a good back-and-forth. I apologize if you or anyone was hurt because of this. This leads to the following dillema. Dealing with someone who suffers from religious pain is very different than working through false cognitions in therapy for something like depression. In the case of depression, it’s often enough for a fellow sufferer to empathize, and for the therapist to work through the distortions and triggers in a safe, structured way. But when the pain stems from religious beliefs, I think empathy alone isn’t sufficient. These beliefs often come wrapped in the authority of Torah and spiritual obligation, which makes them feel unchallengeable. For example, if someone believes that Hashem wants them to sit and learn Torah day and night, and that anything less is believed, then yes, we can (and must) empathize. Living with such a demanding and punishing image of Hashem is incredibly painful. But in my opinion, empathy is only part of it. To really help, we sometimes need to gently offer permission to believe in a different version of Hashem, a compassionate, loving one. This requires some level of intellectual engagement, especially if the person believes this harsh view is Daas Torah, taught to them directly by all the gedolim throughout the generations. Of course, there’s a fine line between offering healing Torah and giving a full-on shiur klali, which can feel irrelevant or even invalidating. The goal is never to debate (although that's fun too for some), but to open a window, subtly and sensitively, that maybe, just maybe, there’s another way to see things. I believe I may have crossed that line recently, and if so, I apologize. But I’d really love to hear from the oilam, and from someone in particular (you know who), whether this resonates. And also, where is that line between helpful Torah and a beis midrash-style discussion? How do we offer clarity without sounding like we’re trying to “prove” something? Spot on, brother. You are accentuating the difficulty of the sensitive balancing/juggling act that you are asking those of those who are capable of trying to bridge the "gap" you spoke of in your original post. Not simple to find the delicate balance while being supportive, sensitive and empathetic. It's a lot easier to merely empathize, but it often wont truly help the person. Pointing out distortions, opening up new ideas, all without lecturing and allthewhile trying to preserve dignity and exercise care, gently showing the right way without repeating the mistakes of those that went before, all this without truly knowing what the guy is dealing with, because he hasn't opened up fully .... it aint easy. It's easier to give up without trying, especially if you don't want to do any harm inadvertently... But doing what's easier hasn't helped anyone lately... Real life usually doesnt have easy answers. Thanks for being a Bright spot in a world that's often full of shadows. chaimoigen It definitely helps, especially when you give it:) But for real healing to start, yes, we have to take some risks... |
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Nothing good grows in the dark.
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Re: Religious pain 04 Jul 2025 14:54 #438459
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