yitzchokm wrote on 22 Aug 2023 21:48:

Reb Yitzchok, I believe I've seen this idea posted before by others. It makes sense. For me it's mostly a psycholigical thing, but hey, it works:)

Raboisai, thanks for your great thoughts put into words!

I know lots of people
I have a whole lot of friends 
But for you special guys
on Guard Your Eyes
I would go to all the worlds-ends.

For you know the shapes of my struggles
You understand the shape of my fears
I have showed you that shapes of my shadowy places
And shed not a few salty tears.

And the wholeness I've found in this hallowed space
Has lifted me forever free
With my friends here on - and off - GYE
I'm the realest and bestest - ME.

About thinking "holy thoughts" during intimacy, Thank you for everyone who shared your opinion. That's the kind of thing that's usually hard to take a survey on. 

I just want to add that for me, I felt it was helpful to take a specific thought with me inorder to avoid thinking other images and *stuff* at those moments I most want them to be far away. It's much easier to think about a pasuk and imagine a hebrew letter than to think about how much I love my wife. Especially when, despite my efforts, I may not have the most positive feelings about her at the moment. But even when I feel very good about our relationship, those nasty images tend to creep up, and I have my specific images and prayers to turn to. I'm not saying I try to remove myself from the relationship - I agree that that needs to be the center of it all. 

As far as what is the ideal, I guess there are different approaches. Maybe Kavanos etc. are best to be added on after youre really a "giver", or maybe they can also be a way to help you get there. I think for me it helps me feel like I'm involved in doing something positive and holy and feel good about the experience in general. 

syataDshmaya wrote on 24 Aug 2023 11:36:


Trying to understand what you are saying better. But why can’t you think of the efforts that she put in to make you supper? What it entailed and how she did it with you in mind, or anything else for that matter, between you two, just think deeper into it. 

I don’t want this to come across wrong and it certainly isn’t personal, but to me, thinking about Shaimos of Hashem and the like, is like thinking Torah in the bathroom. Is it allowed if it will help from negative thoughts- yes, is it preferred at all- no. Same here- is it allowed if it will help from negative thoughts- yes, is it preferred at all- no.

shmira101 wrote on 24 Aug 2023 14:26:

I already posted about this topic on a different thread. If I remember correctly the Baal Hatanya in Shulchan Aruch Harav writes that there is a difference between the two. He writes explicitly that it is permitted to think about divrei torah during intimacy. However, I am unsure whether this would only be permitted when our hands are clean. I don't remember where the source is, although I think it is in the first part of the Shulchan Aruch Harav somewhere in hilchos tefillah. I would appreciate it if someone could quote the source.

I found the source for my previous post. או"ח סימן עג סעיף א. I saw on a chabad website that this should only be done if it doesn't interfere with the fulfillment of the mitzvah. (This might be referring to what I posted on a different thread that it is medically important to experience enough physical pleasure).

For clarity:

In the bathroom it is forbidden to think about sexual pleasure. In order to avoid this a person is permitted to think about divrei torah. This is also not the preferred option because it is forbidden to think about divrei torah in the bathroom. When a person can't get his mind off of thinking about sexual pleasure he is permitted to think about diverei torah only because it is the better of the two options that are at his proposal. (see או"ח סי' פה סעיף ב and מ"ב ס"ק יג).

There is nothing wrong with thinking only about pleasure during intimacy. It is a holy thing to think of spiritual and holy thoughts, especially when becoming pregnant as this will benefit the soul of the newborn child in that it will be clothed in holiness, (see Tanya chapter two). There are also sources to make a mental image of the face of a holy tzaddik during intimacy, for holiness, but even more so in order to benefit the newborn child. Also, see שו"ע הרב או"ח סימן עג סעיף א that unlike thinking about divrei torah in the bathroom there is no prohibition against thinking about torah during intimacy. This is the basis behind the difference between the bathroom and intimacy and why in the bathroom it is bedieved and during intimacy it is the preferred option.

As I posted on a different thread this isn't meant to replace physical pleasure. As I posted on this thread and the other thread if a person doesn't have enough physical pleasure it can sometimes lead to infertility.

From what other people posted it seems that there are those who follow a different opinion of daas torah not to have any spiritual thoughts and to just focus on pleasure and pleasing their wife.

yitzchokm wrote on 24 Aug 2023 19:04:

Curious about any sources that posit that it is ideal not to have ANY spiritual thoughts? (Full disclosure: It's been many years since I've had any thoughts during intimacy other than loving my wife and enjoying myself. Sorry to say, but that's the reality.)

Bennyh wrote on 24 Aug 2023 19:36:

I don't know whether my words are true. I was assuming this based on other people's posts. I only know of the idea of the rest of what I posted. It should be noted that pleasing your wife is one of the 613 Mitzvohs D'oreisa whereas the other spiritual thoughts I posted except for having children are all middas chassidus.

Bennyh wrote on 24 Aug 2023 19:36:

Why would you be sorry to say? I thought that loving and pleasing your wife was the point. As far as your own pleasure, that will come whether you like it or not, and what's wrong with enjoying it? I'm with you, Benny
I don't know of any such sources, but I think it's basic that any  thoughts that will interfere with purpose, that is giving your wife what she needs, doesn't come in at all.
I remember seeing, I think in Bnai Yissischar, that it important to thank Hashem (in your thoughts) for the pleasure you are having. I would think a "nuch bracha" would suffice. Bshaas maaseh focus on her and togetherness

Eerie wrote on 24 Aug 2023 21:17:

Do you also remember all the other things the benei yisaschar says there?? 

Yes, pleasing the wife is the point, and a mitzvas asei, as yitzchokm wrote, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying it (although not sure how to square that with the מחבר that says it should be done כאילו כפאו שד). But the question was whether not to have ANY spiritual thoughts as well.

I used to have spiritual thoughts, I used to share uplifting divrei torah (appropriate for the setting) with my wife in the early days (that really turned her on), but I haven't done that in recent years and I think my intimacy can be further elevated. That's all I'm saying.

I feel the point is being totally missed. 

I highly doubt that more than a handful of people who use this site regularly would be able to say confidently that they are holding by upgrading their thoughts to elevated content. We can’t get sidetracked with all the (very important) special things that should be thought of when we are together with our wives. If and when we perfect the art of perfect giving, at least in her eyes, then, maybe, we can go forwards with our own internal shteiging of thoughts. We can’t get fooled into another trap, that we are “up to par” in pleasing our spouses, then start with all the Heilege Zachen and lose focus of what we need to. 

of course there are very very elevated ideas and thoughts to have, the Ramban wrote a whole chapter in his iggeres devoted to this. The Zohar in (if I recall correctly) Pinchas, the Medrash by Rus and the Medrash by Yehudah, as well as many more places. 
I believe though that many of us here are not up to that stage of growth yet (if ever).

(A bachur with a beard is like a monkey in pajamas with a necktie- don’t lose focus!!)

Eerie wrote on 24 Aug 2023 21:17:

I didn't see the Bnei Yissaschar but my choson teacher told me to have this in mind by the next Asher Yatzar. I found that the Kaf Hachaim quotes such an opinion.

Just catching up here. 
not going to chime in so much except firstly to say that I appreciate Shmira’s point about being real. And Benny and Eerie’s points about loving and pleasing her. 

Two more quick points:
1. Enjoying the experience and mutuality, the connection and positivity is a higher emotion. That’s fundamentally different than “taking” and “using”. In the above context, enjoying the wonderful experience isn’t selfish, and it’s part of giving and the mitzva. 

2. there is a rishon (can’t research now) who says that כאילו כפאו שד means that he made it happen quickly שלא יתן דעתו על אשה אחרת . In that context it isn’t a contradiction to what is being described by Benny or Eerie at all. 

And according to other pirushim, what’s being described isn’t nogaya for me.

 I try to work on what will work for me.
Thinking about her more than me, and us together, is making me into a better mentch and husband. That’s enough for me to work on for now, Can’t belive I’m sharing this but I like to think about her eyes… how she looks when she looks at me a certain way…

I can report that when done this way it’s more satisfying and feel great (only when she is in the mood, of course … )

Gut shabbos!!