chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2023 13:46:

Yes, very well said.
Please do and let us know what you come out with.

shmira101 wrote on 21 Aug 2023 19:16:

I would just add that if the "hoiche zachen" take away from focusing on the wife and the present- then it is worth rethinking. 

But I am hoping to apply it some way. With focusing on her, but in a high way, not lowly and pure physical, rather spiritual, elevated love? Maybe someone can elaborate some better guidance.

frank.lee wrote on 22 Aug 2023 07:46:

Spiritual, elevated love is loving her as person. The texture of her soul. Wanting to give to her, to make her happy. To connect to her emotionally, psychologically, and to use the special bracha of physical connection to build it better.
Face to face, eye to eye, heart to heart. That is elevated.
A wise person says that if it feels good afterwards it was probably the right thing to do...

If you look in Ramabn in Iggeres HaKodesh you will find this idea

chaimoigen wrote on 22 Aug 2023 13:16:

Physical love and intimacy if done the right way is the highest form of spiritual. Spiritual isn’t an end, it’s a means towards creating a whole person who uses the physical to connect properly with Hashem (and his wife).
Like the dyybuk said “When He (The Gaon) eats his stale bread soaked in water it’s like a Korban from the Mizbeach”. 

(For those more philosophy oriented, take a look at the Kuzari and Rambam, for thos more Chassidic oriented take a look at the Tanya.)

Hoara Nechbedes.
Disclaimer: nothing here is meant to negate the many other positive aspects of what I write about.
One of the many purposes of this site is to help people leave the darkness of being alone and join a community of friends (strangers) who all share the same interests in a specific area. “To get out of loneliness”.

Of the many ways in which that is done is by connecting to real people, via the forum, hopefully calls and maybe even meeting people. This is beneficial for many reasons, to find that we aren’t alone in the struggle, that we can get out of it and succeed in many different ways in life.
However this creates a persona of each of us dealing with this issue, and this issue alone. Meaning as an “anonymous forum” no one connects here besides for the purpose of solving the issues of p&m. This gives way to the falsehood that these struggles are in a vacuum. That these things are things that happen in and of themselves.
However fortunately we were created as social beings and it is impossible for us to live in that vacuum. Therefore, the help and insight we each offer are relevant only as much as we disclose. 
The only way in my opinion to find an honest solution to each individual is to have full disclosure of that specific human being, not just a specific struggle, because none of these actions are happening in a vacuum, they are happening to a person who has many other things happening in his life, all of them creating the ability to do things he wants to and things he doesn’t.
As such we aren’t here to become less lonely, for we are only seeing a small part of a big person- who remains alone. Rather we are here to find people to really get out of the loneliness with, and to help us on our way. (Besides the many other important parts of our being here. Tzaras Rabim Chatzi Nechama etc)

Reb Shmira! A belated welcome to the forum. You sound like a very bright and insightful person.



I agree. I have made some real friends that I call and we talk about all manner of things. The context of our struggles within our greater lives and circumstances matters a lot. And often, these friends are the only ones I'm comfortable speaking about ANY issues, not just GYE related.

frank.lee wrote on 22 Aug 2023 07:46:

This is very good. I have no idea; I am still trying to make it better on a practical level, and there are various moving pieces. But I would say this- If the gadol hador asked you to make him a tea, you would try to make a very good tea, just the way he likes it. The hoiche thoughts I would have are trying to make it just right, how special it is that I have the zechus, and really being enveloped in the situation. I would apply that here (not in the sense that a wife is a gadol, but in the sense that hoiche thoughts can be fully engaging with the act at the time). You may apply the shmooz about Chanoch being tofer tefiros u'meyached yichudim if you like. Old fight. Or you can call it "her gashmiyus is your ruchniyus". You may also refer to the pasuk of "vehayu lebasar echad" as being the end in itself. Long shmooz

richtig wrote on 22 Aug 2023 19:14:

Agreed- don’t lose focus

Bennyh wrote on 22 Aug 2023 19:03:

Maybe you can speak to them about other things, because they are the ones who know the whole you and relate to that, not just part of you.

shmira101 wrote on 22 Aug 2023 18:55:

Taka a He'ara nichbedes. For me, I have sometimes found that becoming real friends and talking about all manner of things can sometimes take my focus away from the main point of the friendship. In a way, if you know about my gye-type struggles in a vacuum, and I yours, without it spilling over into the fullness of our lives, we are free to be vulnerable and honest. Once we are real friends, in a way it can begin to feel like my other friendships, where I am more guarded. Its a catch-22, because I need real friends who can fully embrace me and I them, but at the same time, I don't tell my real friends about my struggles here, do I? I envy the one who forms a full-fledged friendship here without losing the vulnerability to be fully expressive about their gye struggles.

shmira101 wrote on 21 Aug 2023 19:03:

I don't know whether this is spiritual or psychological nor whether this works for everyone but I found in my personal experience that going to mikvah after having relations with my wife cleared my mind and reset it. Relations with my wife left me with feelings of intimacy and pleasure and this made it very challenging when I would see other women afterwards. Going to mikvah left me with the close relationship with my wife but dropped the overwhelming feelings of physical pleasure. My struggles with M in recent years were due to trying to relieve stress, anxiety and depression through M and weren't related to physical pleasure.

richtig wrote on 22 Aug 2023 19:32:

 I think we are only uncomfortable speaking to real friends abt our struggles, cause who says they struggle and understand u, plus the might even judge u, but once u have a friend with the same struggle and whos in the same position as u, why would it be uncomfortable to speak to him abt ur struggles

yitzchokm wrote on 22 Aug 2023 21:48:

Part of my realization was also that “before you go to the Mikva”, meaning during intimate moments, there is a very delicate balance between lust and true honest real connection, that has to be maintained. 

However I do feel that after, by putting a separation it can help for the times of Hetter, as you said.

Reb Shmira, I liked both of your recent posts. I relate to your first nekuda mostly the way Reb Chaim said it, when it's assur you  are just fasting, put a block on it, it's off limits. When she's muttar, it's normal that the aroused impulses should want more
As far as the 2nd point, of making friends real, I'm surprised Cordnoy didn't thank you yet! Being real with other people is many times crucial in breaking free.