cordnoy wrote on 06 Dec 2022 01:32:

What’s the deal with the final “g”s, Cord…you didn’t used to drop them. What is the significance of that?

Eerie wrote on 06 Dec 2022 00:09:

Your first two sentences are both wrong. In the second sentence, you are mixin' up "lo sachmod" with a chamsan.

Teshuvahguy wrote on 06 Dec 2022 01:47:

It doesn't mean to eradicate the desire. We cant eradicate feelings. That's just not how feelings work. We cant get up one day and decide we dont want a desire and then work on it and it goes away. It means to reach a state of not triggering the desire and not never giving in to the desire. -in my opinion. (The hashkafa given over to me) Same with anger. We don't control our feelings. We cant just decide "hay I'm not going to feel anger" It means if we don't try to avoid triggers and give in to the desire to be angry. As it says 

ר"ש בן אלעזר אומר משום חילפא בר אגרא שאמר משום ר' יוחנן בן נורי המקרע בגדיו בחמתו והמשבר כליו בחמתו והמפזר מעותיו בחמתו יהא בעיניך כעובד ע"ז שכך אומנתו של יצה"ר היום אומר לו עשה כך ולמחר אומר לו עשה כך עד שאומר לו עבוד ע"ז והולך ועובד

R’ Shimon Ben Elazar said in the name of Chilfa bar Agra, who said in the name of R’ Yochanan Ben Nuri: One who tears his clothing in anger, or who smashed vessels in his anger, or who scatters money in his anger - he should be in your eyes like an idolater. For this is the way of the Yetzer Hara: Today it tells him to do this, and tomorrow it tells him to do that, until it tells him to worship idolatry, and he goes and worships.

torah.org/torah-portion/ravfrand-5770-yisro/   -one of the many pshatim in lo sachmod.Parshas Yisro“Lo Sachmod”: Two Approaches

These divrei Torah were adapted from the hashkafa portion of Rabbi Yissocher Frand’s Commuter Chavrusah Tapes on the weekly portion: Tape # 712, The Kiddush Club. Good Shabbos!

The tenth of the Asserres HaDibros [“Ten Commandments”] is Lo Sachmod: “Do not covet your neighbor’s house; do not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his slave, his donkey, his ox, or anything that belongs to your neighbor” [Shemos 20:13]. A person is not allowed to be jealous of his friend’s possessions.

The Ibn Ezra wonders how the Torah can legislate against a person’s desires. It is very natural for a person driving a jalopy to be jealous of a person who has a new car and does not have to worry about leaking oil and whether the car will start each time he turns the key in the ignition. If this is readily understandable in terms of our neighbor’s car, it is certainly understandable in terms of more meaningful things in life. We see their families, we see their position, etc., etc. How does the Torah command a person not to be jealous?

The Ibn Ezra cites a parable which allows us to understand the proper approach to the prohibition of not coveting: No commoner ever thinks he will marry the princess. He knows that the princess is out of his league. It is human nature that one only has desires for things he can relate to. A person does not covet things which are so far removed from him that he considers them to be “out of his league”. When the villager goes into the big city and sees the King’s palace and sees the King’s beautiful daughter, he does not even think “Oh, I wish I could marry her.” He knows that such an occurrence is strictly beyond the realm of possibility in terms of his lineage and background. It is just not going to happen.

The Ibn Ezra says that an intelligent person must realize that people do not acquire spouses or possessions based on their wisdom or cleverness, but only based on the Will of G-d to grant him such. If a person has a beautiful house or car or wife, it is because the Almighty wanted him to have that. For whatever reason, it is G-d’s Will that Reuven have these things and Shimmon not have them. The antidote a person must employ to avoid coveting, says Ibn Ezra, is Emunah [faith]. Namely, the faith that all his possessions are what G-d wants him to have and all of his neighbor’s possessions are what G-d wants his neighbor to have.

Aka Hashem wants us to work on avoiding triggering the anger/lust. Not "fixing it" and taking it away. If anger/lust does get triggered, we cant just "fix" them. All we can do is work on the triggers.

Human being wrote on 06 Dec 2022 03:05:

Thanks for writin' the Ibn Ezra I mentioned, you then went and corrupted what he said with your explanation in the last paragraph.

cordnoy wrote on 06 Dec 2022 03:19:

That is the hashkafa i was given over by my rabbeam. Those highlighted texts show the ibn ezra telling us not to trigger the desire. Not to destroy the desire.

How do we really know what's natural and what's taken from 'there'-(as you call it)?

The Ibn Ezra doesn't say what you said. Cords is right.

Human being wrote on 06 Dec 2022 03:05:

From the APA (American Pediatric Association) website on CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy)

CBT is based on several core principles, including:

1. Psychological problems are based, in part, on faulty or unhelpful ways of thinking.
2. Psychological problems are based, in part, on learned patterns of unhelpful behavior.
3. People suffering from psychological problems can learn better ways of coping with them, thereby relieving their symptoms and becoming more effective in their lives.

From Psychologytools.com:
 The ‘CBT way’ of understanding emotions says that what we feel is a result of what we think and how we act. It suggests that if our goal is to man- age how we are feeling then we will need to make changes in our thinking and behavior. CBT has a repertoire of techniques for exploring and changing the ways we think and act.

We have gone widlely off topic here. 
Coveting or ' Lo Sachmod' is one of the hardest things to understand, there are many explanations to what the Torah means by that? because even the Ibn Era doesnt really answer the question, how does Hashem want someone to stop desiring? even after understanding that its not mine, a thought is a thought and the Torah has never explicitly forbidden thoughts only on Idol Worship. So how come this is different? I dont know the answer to that. 
But cords, what are you saying that we are suppose do do? shoot ourselves in the head? 

chancy wrote on 06 Dec 2022 16:45:

Thank you.

The first thin' we must do is not warp or distort what the Torah or the commentators say (I'm not sayin' to agree or follow or whatever, just misconstruin' them is not justifiable.)

The Ibn Ezra does attempt to answer the question, Beis Halevi and others as well, but it's a difficult task.

We need to live life, so figure out what works. I have at times, but other times, not so much.

Godspeed to you

Yes, we have gone wildly off topic, but we have some things to clear up here.

I guess I wasn’t clear enough with what I meant when I differentiated between the desires. Allow me to explain. First of all, The rambam writes in Sefer hamitzvos-my translation- (lo saseh 265), "The Torah has commanded us not to do anything (לעשות תחבולות) in order to buy something that our friend has…and these are the words of the mechilta “one might think that if he covets with words alone he is oiver, the pasuk says…so, too, here he is only oiver if he does an action. We see from here that this lav is warning us from resorting to actions that will bring us the thing that we covet." עד כאן לשון הרמב"ם

It is very clear that one is only oiver lo sachmoid if he does actions to get the thing he covets, and coveting alone is not lo sachmoid. You were right that I was referring to the din of chamsan, but that is lo sachmoid, they are not separate things. That being said, the Rambam in the next aveirah lists lo sis’aveh, which he explains to mean to desire someone else’s thing and he goes on to explain that the difference between lo sachmoid and lo sis’aveh is that lo sis’aveh is referring to coveting somebody else’s thing in your heart. The Rambam explains clearly that the reason why the torah forbade coveting in our hearts is because the desire in our heart for somebody else’s thing will bring us to steal or force him to sell it. In the technical sense, (and all halachos of the Torah have technical parameters), the issur of lo sachmoid and lo sis’aveh are only when coveting somebody else’s thing, and the Torah commands us to work on ourselves to eradicate that desire. The Ibn Ezra expains how to work on it, be it from the angle of Bitachon, or the Bais Halevi's way, but again, the Torah is referring to desiring somebody else's things. When I pointed out that we are discussing sexual desires I was not saying that sexual desires are untouchable, I was saying that when it is not desiring somebody else's things then it is not lo sachmoid. You seem to be very bothered when people twist the Torah's words, and rightfully so. But where does it say that desiring something forbidden is lo sachmoid? It seems you went a little far with it. Now, we can possibly extrapolate that the Torah wants us to work on our desiring specific things that are assur to us. And there are ways to do that, along the lines of the Ibn ezra and the Bais Halevi or otherwise. But that would definitely not be the issur of lo sachmoid in a technical sense. The Rambam in shemone perakim, where he discusses which is greater, having a desire and overcoming it or not having a desire, differentiates between eishes ish and other arayos. He writes that for an eishes ish a person should not have a desire, as he should realize that it is totally off limits,(the Rambam includes it in the list of the mitzvos she'haseichal m'chaivon, which he says one should not desire) but with other arayos it is natural to have a desire, and the Torah wants you to  overcome it. The Rambam seems to indicate that there is no din to eradicate the desire of things that are assur but are not wrong from a logical standpoint. Another important point is that many times I, and I'm sure others, think we are bad because of the desire in and of itself, not desiring something which is clearly assur, but just plain feeling the urges within. That desire, which is something that we all have, and must have in order for the continuation of the world, is something we must all learn to control. But the desire, drive, base urge, that is not something that we find the Torah wants us to eradicate. Work on not desiring forbidden things? Yes. Lo sachmoid? I don't see it. Work on controling our desires? Absolutely. 

Sorry if I wrote too many g's:)

Hashemschild.1 wrote on 06 Dec 2022 04:44:

Dear Hashem's child (I love that name! We have to keep remembering that we are Hashem's beloved children)
I would say 2 ways. Maybe others have more. 1- Have an open and honest conversation with your wife. Ask her what she likes. Ask her what she does not like. I have written another thread in the BB forum recording some of what I learned that way. But the point is not for me to educate anybody on how to be intimate. My point is that we should all realize that we have learned tons of garbage that does not belong and we have to get rid of it. So, although what my wife likes or dislikes might not hold true for yours, you have to get rid of what you're doing wrong. So sit down with her, during the day, not in the bedroom, and discuss what she likes and dislikes. be honest with her and with yourself. Make sure that she feels no pressure to say something specific, she feels comfortable to say the full trruth. You'll be surprised. If she likes it and it's ok halachically(ask a rav if you have specific questions), then it can stay. If she doesn't like it, stop. If she's pareve and you feel it might come from the wrong place, refer to point 2.
2-discuss with an appropriate person, be it one of the people that GYE can connect you to, a rav who understands, a frum sex therapist. You have to be open and truthful about your situation. It is not comfortable, but it is an amazing resource. Can't think of much that compares. They can help you see what you can't see alone, they can guide you, teach you. A human being that you speak to is the best resource. If you would like ideas of specific people that I think can help, pm me
hatzlacha! Keep up the fight my dear brother! Together we WILL make it!

jackthejew wrote on 06 Dec 2022 11:50:

Exactly my point. CBT says that our thoughts influence our feelings. But where did those thoughts come from? Hint: feelings

STEP 1- In primary I was bullied for no reason.
STEP 2- I started feeling really really scared and ashamed.
STEP 3-. I started constantly thinking, Why do I deserve this.(Thoughts about  my shame I had as a 5 yr old)  What's wrong with me? Maybe there's something wrong with the way I look? The way I act? Ok there ,must be something weird about me. I must look really unattracted and gross.  I must be a real nerd. And i started constantly thinking (thoughts about the danger i was in) Why do I deserve this? What's wrong with me that this is happening to me? why does he want to hurt me? why doesn't anyone come to defend me? why doesn't the rebbi chap he's beating me up? 

In other words my FEELINGS of shame and ANGER demanded a justification and I had to understand COGNITIVELY why the heck I deserve to feel shame or fear. Because when we experience feelings, we search cognitively for the reasons we feel a certain way. And when we can't come up with the cognitive reasons to explain our feelings (in my case shame and danger), AKA when we cant process our feelings-we have no possible way to cognitively wrap our heads around it it gets stuck in the brain as unprocessed feelings (AKA trauma) 

STEP 4- Once we have an unprocessed feeling (a trauma) that is "stuck in feeling that way" because we never processed it, we then have the thoughts that those feelings cause playing over and over in our heads. (about shame -why do i feel this way?What's wrong with me? Maybe there's something wrong with the way I look? The way I act? Ok there ,must be something weird about me. I must look really unattracted and gross.  I must be a real nerd, i must be crazy. About fear- why in the world do i feel this way? I must be in danger. I must watch out. i must be hypervigilant. Is that guy dangerous? That guy on the Plane might blow us up, )
In other words, when the feelings are still there, the cognitive thoughts that stem from the feelings, remain. 


STEP 5- Therefore- Any feeling that remains as a trauma, because it is still inside you, will continue spewing forth thoughts that may no longer be relevant. Telling yourself that your thoughts aren't rational don't work, because the producer of the thoughts is still producing the thoughts. The feeling of shame and fear I had as a 5 yr old are still inside my head saying "beware of any older male". Telling myself that my thoughts no longer make sense, wont really help.

​How do we heal those faulty cognitions? By healing the feeling that is causing those faulty thoughts and perceptions.

Now we get to the main point. The jealousy and sexual desires. -feelings lead to thoughts that leading to feelings. For ex: "I wish I had his bike" "I want to have his big house". - And then come feelings of jealousy. In this scenario, we must ask ourselves. Where did those thoughts come from?
And when we search deep, the answer almost always is.....feelings.

This is what's going on:  For ex: A feeling of low self worth, a feeling of anger, a feeling of shame. Thoughts are then created of hay "if i had that guys car, maybe i would feel more respected" or "I'm so angry that my partner got the promotion. I wanted it really badly. But maybe if i would have a car like "plony" I wouldn't be so angry"  or "I feel so ashamed that I'm pulling in so little money for my family, if only i would be able to have "plonys" bike for my own kid"

In this scenario, working with the thoughts, will not do anything unless we understand why we are having these thoughts! if we don't know that low self worth or anger or shame is creating my thoughts which then go on to create the feeling of jealousy, no matter how many times we "CBT" our thoughts and tell ourselves "hay its not your bike its 0 shychis to you"  it will not help. Because our problem is not cognitive! We know its 0 shychis to us yet we still crave it for underlying reasons of low self worth and shame.

Now comes the part about sexual desire.  Sexual desire is like trauma-except it can never be taken away. Our sexual desires are inside of us no matter what. (unless we chemically castrate ourselves) So regardless of what we tell ourselves, We cant just erase our desire for something sexually. even if we say "this has 0 shychis to me sexually", What we now can do is avoid is avoid sparking our sexual desire, but it doesn't go away! That's just not how our neurobiological brain works. its like a trauma. "its stuck" if you don't have sexual desires, its because your 6 feet under. Our body's produce hormones whether we like it or not! And those desires will.............
.......cause thoughts.....which will cause .....feelings.......thoughts........feelings......thoughts.

In other words the sexual desire, is stuck in us just like the feeling in trauma. And therefore the trauma itself wont heal cognitively, because its still there! Same with sexual desire, you cant talk to it cognitively and destroy it. Because....... its still there!  But we definitely can work on not triggering that desire.



There is one option to remove "alt feelings" completely rewire our brain and rewire all our memories and experiences using the neuroplasticity of the brain. But in order to do that, we must follow the entire trail back from feeling to thought t feeling to thought to feeling to though to feeling, and resolve all of our feelings, and completely change all our memories of all our sexual experiences, that would take years and years of emdr, and that is only if a person reached the stage were he is absolutely certain where his "alt" desires came from. ......Anyways anyone who gets there, good luck
But there's a reason conversion therapy doesn't work.

Hopefully the adults in the room are smart enough to know which posts to take to heart and which to discard.

Godspeed to all

Human being wrote on 06 Dec 2022 21:09:

CBT recognizes much of sexual deviancy not as hardwired into the sexual drive, but as sexual, (or even other desires)" distorted through a filter of trauma", for example BDSM, which is often about a desire for a feeling of control on both of sides of the equation. So if the trauma can be identified, not all feelings of sexual experience necessarily need to be changed, rather the attitude of needing control can be worked on, and then the sexual desire won't be tinged with the desire for control that causes the end result of sexual attraction in that way