hope613 wrote on 07 Sep 2012 09:56:


A few things:

1- Boruch Hashem it is of little-to-no concern of mine whether you feel better, or not. You need a better life, not a better feeling. You are all wrapped up in "what hope613 is feeling now", "what hope613 is not feeling now"...that's what I wrote before about self-obsession and self-centeredness. You are not hearing my words. Will you consider them?

The lines I copied from your post above are also things that point out how way out of your league you are with these issues. I'd be way out of my league with them too! Anyone would be. Gevalt, you need assistance, man. And that leads me to #2:

2- The lines above show that you (as most of us) are still resorting to your favorite tool: trying very hard - in complete protective isolation. Maybe you come out - but hey - this anonymous virtual forum is not much, really. You are not even using your real name and neither are 90% of everyone else! How real is that? Not very. Why go to a weak tool for help? Because it is safe enough, I guess. The advice you will get is also 'safe' - and cheap. You need better. You need real. This is your real life you are talking about, here - not your virtual life!

Rebbe Nachman spoke of being alone with Hashem, of hisbodedus...even while being in a group of people! One can learn to be alone even in a crowd. That is a thing to work on - but isolating until the point you describe is not what he was talking about at all! Sadly, our loneliness is our main obstacle for it perpetuates problems like the huge ones you have here - and lonliness feeds a person's sexual and emotional dependencies - it does not break one free of them. This is a foreign language to you and all of us. Please consider learning it. For if nothing really changes, then nothing changes.

3- The one thing you wrote that is encouraging is:



A fantastic question! And to try be"H to answer that question, I'd say two things:

1- The main qualification is that the person you open up to is not you. That single factor is the most crucial, at the start. The fact that you and I are blinded by our little, selfish concerns is not evil, it is not "the yetzer hora" - it is just a fact of human nature! We are myopic to the point of blindness. It is no more the case for goyim as it is for yidden, and you are as 'stricken' with it as I am. It is part of the blessing - and the curse - of identity. The excuse that "oy, I can;t talk to him, he'd never understand!" is just a way of really saying "I cannot afford an objective opinion over here, gotta protect my precious..." We lie to ourselves very frequently.

Besides, I wonder: do your parents know of your relationship with the woman - and the extent of it? Interesting question. Who does? I wonder who you found safe to tell about it over the years.

2- There are good relationship counselors, counselors of all types; and smart, caring rabbis of all stripes around. You need to find one and open it all up to him. He has got to care enough to spend the time and listen - and does not to be a genius. Tell him about your upbringing, about your friend this woman, the sex while she was married, the sex since then, the emotional relationship you have maintained with her, the learning frustrations, the self-doubt, the commitment you have to live out the rest of your life as a frum yid (even though your behavior proves that you do accept yourself having sex with a married and unmarried woman - otherwise you would not be doing it - that is just a historical fact though you may still frame it as "a struggle"), and all the things you have left out of this forums posts.

There is a great book by a good author I am tempted to suggest to you - for your issue is not a sexual or addiction issue at all - it is a relationship and identity issue. But you feel to me like a person who would like that too much! It's too comfortable to you. You are so very guided by what makes you feel better, that I hope for your sake and the sake of your future that you set aside the worn out, overused and broken GPS in your heart, and open your mouth to somone real who will see it all from another perspective than yours. Given that your life is a bit of a mess and your GPS made it that way, any other perspective would be worth its weight in gold right now, brother.

And do it in person, not just on the phone.

But I hope you do not delay much for finding 'the best person to go to'. Because the eye-opening you will get from just opening up honestly and fully to another person, will be well worth it alone.

With lots of love and concern,

Dov

Dear friends,

Does a depressed person know that he is depressed ? I think of myself as a happy and popular boy, I have good friends
I have a loving family and all around imagine my future as a happy family man.

What worries me, is that one day Ill be married to some very loving and caring girl but somehow will get exposed on some far
away business trip to some attractive woman and wont be able to control myself. I feel like I need to fix my boundaries amongst many things.

I started speaking to a Rabbi a few years back openly about this but for some reason it never developed and soon after I found myself back
in this relationship.

Dov, do you know anyone in Israel recommend I speak to ?

I appreciate you taking your time to write the lengthy replies and I truly hope bs'chus H' will help you
overcome and fight your addiction.

Shavua tov umvorach

Check out cbtisrael.com. Call them up and give them a brief overview and get a referral.

No, a depressed person does not know they are depressed.

Who to talk to....

Well, can you go back to the person you started to talk to years ago? Getting honest and up to date with him might be a great place to start! You may feel it would be humiliation - but perhaps if you do it sincerely, it would be an opportunity for building humility and he would certainly admire it, as anyone would. Wouldn't you? Here is someone coming clean and wanting help. And humility is actually a very strong basis for a relationship - any relationship, really.

But maybe the reason it petered out back then years ago was because he was no good for you. Remember, you may need someone who helps hold your feet to the fire - at least one who sees through all your BS - and trust me, if you are anything like me, nederman, Guard, Charlie, and anyone else on this forum, you have a goodly serving of BS in your brain. We all do! It's our denial, self deception, and distraction with all kind of little things rather than facing the big, real stuff and it creeps up - that's why we are still growing! G-d is not through with any of us yet.

So who to talk with in EY?

...I will ask a few guys and get back to you. Can we communicate by PM for this part? It will get into docs, shrinks, and private stuff....ok?

- Dov

PS. Just for the record, though I thank you for the very nice brocha at the eand of your post, i want to clarify for you that I do not need to 'overcome' my addiction, for it does not rule my life in any respect. I am a recovering sexaholic and sober one day at time, so life is a great and beautiful thing, so far for the past 15 1/2 years. My worst day sober is far better than my best day back when I was acting out. I have good sober friends, too, and though my wife knows she is married to a powerless addict, my wife is my life partner, and we're doing very nicely, b"H, one day at a time.

And gevalt, I certainly do not want to ever be busy 'fighting' it again, either. For all those years that I fought it, I lost rather consistently. So the fight is so over, b"H. I don't fight it. I am powerless, so I give up the fight and stay sober with G-d's total Chessed. Since it is working so well, i'd rather continue simply using the 12 steps to keep me living more and more for my G-d as much as I can and continue growing in that, one day at a time. That's all there is in the steps - there is nothing else there. That's 'Recovery'. And I learned from the goyim in AA and SA how to do it, be"H. It's a nice trip. How's yours going?

I have also found a doctor in Israel who is clearly an expert in cognitive therapy. His name is Jonathan Huppert. I think he is at Hebrew U. You can google his name for some of his articles. I emailed him to see if he can give you a referral. He said you are welcome to call him for a referral at 0545730903.

Remember that therapists don't have the same beliefs as you have. You are going there to learn skills to change some beliefs of yours (like powerlessness) into new ones of your choosing, not pick up theirs.

This is enough, really. I do not know who is reading this, but I need to say something about the problem of powerlessness that nederman keeps referring to. He makes it out as if the very first step some people (maybe all people) need to take in order to finally get well, is to let go of the false idea that they are "powerless".

And I agree with that 100%!

But with a big caveat:

He is 100% correct for normal Jews (and non-Jews). But addicts - by definition - are men and women who have tried reading "Feeling Good" - and still drink/drug/act out their lust destructively. They go to therapy, take their meds for depression and "OCD" - and they still act out destructively. They even learn the Torah hearing what G-d has to say - and still fail. We are failures who know we shouldn;t be, for we are great people...why does nothing work? Answer: that's an addict. The addict has a specific allergy to his or her drug that is inborn or learned - and it can be triggerred by psychic pain. For this problem, nothing less than a daily miracle from G-d will work, period. And he does not have to deserve it - that's nice to know. As Chaza"l told us, "v'haboteyach baShem, Chessed y'sovevenhu - afliu rosho, uboteyach baShem, Chessed y'sovevenhu."

So is it bad for me (an actual addict) to start off 'believing' that medication will save me and run after it? Nope. Is it bad for me to start off 'believing' that religious dogma will save me and run after it? Nope. Is it bad for me to start off 'believing' that working on my depression with exercises of cognitive therapy will save me? Nope. Not at all! For when they do not work I will finally discover that I am an addict. Then I will be sure, and will be at the 1st step of AA. And it will open up the door that was closed by my pride and my prejudice to sobriety and sanity in recovery.

Admission of powerlessness is the most powerful and lifesaving thing a tested and true powerless addict can do.

But if one is in fact not an addict, then why shove powerlessness down his throat?! He is not an addict and is not powerless! Most Jews (and goyim) are not powerless (over whatever)! Trying to convince that person that he is in fact powerless is a huge disservice, in my opinion. And it makes some people come off with the crazy idea that 12 steps is a religion - that somehow if you are 'good' then you humbly acknowledge your powerlessness - and if you do not, then you are somehow 'bad' - one to be pitied. Pity, for it's such a ridiculous idea. Most people who get drunk once in a while are not alcoholics - most people who are late for minyan do not need a 12 step group - and most people (especially men) who are attracted to porn and masturbation are not addicts, either! For crying out loud, there is a yetzer hora for it that is 100% normal to struggle with! It's what Teshuvah was made for. And 'Teshuvah' is very different than 'recovery'. For recovery is only necessary for people who have lost without Divine intervention - Teshuvah is for anyone, as the RMB"M makes clear - everyone has free choice and can do Teshuvah. An addict has lost. That takes real humility to admit - or more humiliation. As Rebbi Nachman used to say, ader a nisayon, ader a bizayon.

But an addict does Teshuvah and still acts out destructively until his or her life is a mess, over and over again. He tries hypnosis and it doesn't work. He tries Torah and it doesn't work. He tries convincing his wife to be his hooker and it still doesn't work (he masturbates in bed after having sex with her or goes off to porn anyhow). He tries therapy and medication and 'support groups' and he is still mired in an even worse mess now. He is brought to his knees, finally, before he says "ein lanu al mi lehisha'ein (to lean on) ella al Avinu shebashomayim," period. And he has surrendered beating it with his power and will and is willing to learn from others how exactly to do that - how to lean on G-d, one day at a time. That's an addict. He does not need to be told "Gevalt! Don't admit you are powerless! That is why you aren't beating it yet!" His excrement has hit the fan one time too many now and he cannot be fooled that he just needs more self-esteem. He has been down that pretty road already and he knows that the problem is not the yetzer hora, not the pretty women in the street, not his wife, not his penis, and not even his parents who abused him evilly as a child. The problem is Him. He is bankrupt and needs bittul. He is not evil - he is broken. "ein hadovor tolui ella bee," as Rav Elozer ben Durdaya put it. I can't even blame it on the yetzer hora any more. It's all me - and it's all up to me. I need help and only I can be the one to get it. I need to give it allup and lean hard on G-d.

And this is a terrible thing to try and convince a person sho is not broken! 12 steps is not a religion. It's medicine for those who need it. And even for addicts - who are we to say that it works for everyone? But we can share it if it works for us. That's what we do - we share it if it works for us.

And by "works" we addicts all know we mean one thing: that we are actually really sober. Happiness is not success, for even if a person would be so self-centered as to think that, Torah teaches us that sunstance is the key - lo hamidrash ikkar ella hama'aseh. Living right (sanely) is the what it's about. And the bottom line of living right for an addict - like breathing - is sobriety. Sobriety is where living starts, not ends.

That's why Derech eretz is kodmah laTorah - so where is Torah? It starts after derech eretz is achieved. For an addict, sobriety is the key to sane living, and sane living is the key to continuous sobriety. That's his or her Derech Eretz.

Then, Torah starts from there.

I and many hundreds of thousands of sober drunks and drug addicts the world over have discovered we are sober and are living a great life - the only easy life that's ever been ours - as long as we realize and remember that we are actually powerless. This is not a mind game, not "a religion of powerlessness", as I have posted many times. G-d cannot tell us we are powerless. Only our own experience is the teacher. So by all means, read the books, do the meds, whatever. Try! Hashem wants us all to try! But I and others are here to say that there is addiction, and it means I am broken and need fixing. v'ein chavush matir atzmo mibeis ha'asurim. Unlike normal Jews, we need our G-d to do it for us. When we do it - even "with His help" - we have found that we eventually end up naked and masturbating to porn again. "How did I get here?!" Unlike normal Jews to whom (thank G-d!) most sforim are referring, when we do it, we foul it up - only Hashem can be the one, for addicts. That's just what many addicts have discovered. It;s not a religious dogma, but experience. For you it may be different. So please go try (I mean it).

And finally, a bit on being happy:

AA teaches that 'feeling good' is not the point of it all. And, of course, so does the Torah. And no, the directive to serve G-d with joy is not 'putting happiness as the goal'. Quite to the contrary. Happiness, many tzaddikim have told us (the Mesilas Yeshorim 300 years ago, and modern ones are Rav Noach Weinberg and Avigdor Miller, zt"l among many others) is a byproduct of living right. It's purpose is to 1- let one know they are doing something right, and 2- to energize right-living with power. For happiness is nothing but power, energy - it is not life itself. Even rav Noach, who taught the "Five levels of Pleasure" and that G-d created us for happiness, explains that (as does Mesilas Yeshorim at great length) that the only Happiness we were really created for is the greatest happiness - all else is nice, but ultimately false as a goal in and of itself. As Shlomo haMelech wrote: "and I said of simcha, mah zo osah? - What does it do?" He means what does it do - it does not actually do anything. Rather, it helps you do, for it energizes whetever we do, but it has no intrinsic value in the long run. Hey, this is Torah, here. Torah is about the long run - doing G-d's Will. Living right. Not "being happy". This is called growing up for me.

And as both my rebbis and l'havdil my goyishe sponsor told me, "if you are living and not happy, it probably means you are going about things the wrong way." It is G-d's gift to us to change. The burr under the saddle. Not that much more, really.

So let's be sober and be happy.

OH WOW what a reply !! Had to get my reading glasses out for that one !!

I have a MASSIVE problem, like I said I dont struggle constantly and what I described since the lady in question does not live in the same country as I do, BBUUT I have a tremendous problem going on in my life at the moment, like crazy crazy which I dont wish to elaborate about now, and I know I desperately need H's help and to get that I should be taking on myself a kabola or so and my main yezer hora is this lady...

I just cant get myself to promise not to speak to her again..even though I NEED to !!

You may be better served with your 'big problem' if you have at least SOMEONE to tell it to.
Anyone you trust around here, via PM, works. You'll find the unburdening to be helping your feelings about it.

Did you get a referral for a therapist?

I still am not any further with my problem, I took on myself certain things erev Rosh Hashana but now I just find myself
give excuses to that yeah and that not.. I want to go to a therapist but really need a good one that is discreet and actually
will care rather then someone who just does it to pay the bills.. preferable in the Jerusalem area..

Anyone PLLEASSE ??

Maybe try one therapist, find out if he cares enough, and if not get a new one. Right now you are procrastinating.

hope613 wrote on 21 Sep 2012 10:59:


Dear chaver,

Hi there and hatzlacha. May I humbly suggest that you take advantage of the upcoming holiest day of the year and take some time to have a personal talk with your/our Loving Father. Tell Him all your issues and ask Him to help you and to lead you in the right direction.

Gmar chasima tova

MT

Dear hope613,

I PMd you a list of 3-4 good people, with good referrals from decent folks like me ;D

Hatzlocha, whatever your name is...

WELLL !! Its been a few month again, and allot of things have changed. My primary struggle
is hopefully being taken care of...shes engaged to someone else, and I hope he will keep her happy enough, so that she does not contact me again !

I have been experiencing something weird the passed few weeks which I need to take care of.
Every morning I wake up finding myself having wasted seed during the night, now, its happened before, many times ! But I always woke up as it was happening sometimes even on time to stop it.. Now, I dont even feel it anymore and just wake up to dirty pants...

I went to the mikva before shbs, but bam, shbs morning...

Any tips advise ! I say kriyas shem every night !!

Hey man. Just thought to clarify that according to Torah law any ejaculation while sleeping is nothing to worry about, just need to clean it off and your'e good to go. The only problem is to intentionaly waste seed, which I have spent most of my life doing, cause I'm a sexaholic..., but that's besides the point.

All the best!!!