Hey guys,

Wow its been a long time since I posted something on GYE, and it look's like so many new 'heilige neshomes' have joined since
and found clarity and help here.

I don't really remember my previous username, so I will have to start fresh again, I am a young yeshiva boy, come from a black and white
yeshivish family and had my fair amount of struggles in my life. Im not sure what made me stop using GYE but certain things in my life have been better whilst other serious issues are still not solved.

Im not sure if I want to open up right away again with a detailed list of what I suffer (struggle) with, but hope to honest up a little soon.

I did explain back then that I found my problems are a little dif. then most users on this site, since I do have full Internet access but don't really visit por*** sites and neither do I masturb*** anymore. I feel like I just grew out of the latter habit but maybe I just dont want to admit it, that its from hard work and tears filled tefilos. All you guys thinking, "oh wow this guy is doing well, whats he doing on this site"
My struggles are much more severe then that. I fell in love with a married lady...and yeah, pretty much the absolute Nr 1 issur in the torah..I feel so let down, like im talking about something that happened a few years back, but I just dont feel like I made teshuva yet maybe the reason being that I am still in touch with her (shes gotten divorced since then) ok thats enough for now, just looking to finally clear my neshoma before yom kipur..

Dear whatever your real name is - I'll just say 'chaver', cus you are to me...

It's so precious and beautiful that you are coming forward with this here! But if you really want to get help, can you clarify: are you still having sex with her, or not?

If you want to talk over the phone better, let me know by PM.

Hatzlocha,

Dov

Dear Dov (Chaver)

Thank you so much for your reply.

Yeah, I kinda have been in an on and off relationship with her for 4 years now and yeah we still have sex on occasion since we both live in different countries its not like a every day thing. But I just have a very big problem to think normally when it comes to things relating to down south ! And I just feel lost, like I want to grow, I want to move forward in life, I struggle allot when it comes to learning but really want to..

There is a book by David Burns called Intimate Connections. Read the chapter called "The Dark Side of the Single Life."

Is there anywhere in Israel I can buy that book ? Do you want to tell me a little what that chapter is
all about ? Thank you

hope613 wrote on 06 Sep 2012 06:53:


I do not know. They may have English language bookstores there.

It costs $9 and Amazon will ship to Israel. I suspect that the shipping will cost about as much as the book.




It's about a lady who sought therapy because she was divorced with a child and since her divorce she only sought dates with married men. Inevitably each relationship ends not well and she feels bad. And she feels as if she can't stop. This chapter explains how she used concepts of cognitive therapy to attack the problem effectively.

The reason I suggest it is because it can help you decide if this relationship is in your interest to pursue or not, quite apart from the Torah aspect, and since you are a young man if you are smart you will probably conclude that it's not in your interest and just move on.

Some hold that thinking doesn't help you, but I know that thinking clearly is a skill, and those who say it doesn't work do not yet know how to think. David Burns teaches thinking skills.

I really want to read this chapter, but do you think it will make me change my mind after 4 years dating ? Yes we had some big fights and so but... Is there anyway you could scan the chapter and e-mail it ?

Something that has been bothering me whilst browsing through this site is, I am jealous, actually, SUPER JEALOUS. I see how so many
of the guys struggling with these challenges just are able to quote 'gemaras, naach, mishnah, rishoinim' and so on.
I always wanted to succeed in learning but just never managed. I always thought in the back of my mind, maybe its a cause
of what I am doing... but now after reading all of this, my questions and doubts just became allot stronger and I feel more lost !

If you don't change your mind then it will be because you honestly think this is best for you. But then you won't feel sorry about being in this relationship as if you somehow couldn't help it, as you are doing now. You did post a message in a forum for sex addicts.

I think I saw the book as a PDF on the web, just google it. Maybe if you like it you can then buy it. That's up to you.

You can use cognitive therapy self-study to get better at learning also. I started from zero when I was in my early thirties. I got a "linear Gemara" for chapter two of bava metzia and I learned that for a couple of years reviewing over and over again. I also read a book by Rabbi Feigenbaum, a short book that explains how to write down the "tree" representation of a gemara. After I read that it was like night and day.

You may have a belief that "learning is hard for me." The effectiveness of cognitive therapy lies in the fact that it's rooted in your own empirical observations of yourself, not ideas. Can you write an essay or take notes to prove that learning is hard for you? If you try it you might find that you are seeing it worse than it is.

Another book to read also by David Burns is "Feeling Good." It's extremely useful for all aspects of life.

I just read the chapter and it is quite interesting and certain parts of it I can really relate to.

But the problem is much greater, there are so many benefits involved why would a normal person go through the struggles and try
to brake loose. Plus, I keep on fooling myself with halachik ways of that its not really an 'issur' and so at the moment since
we are not married and so on...

I just dont know how to brake loose, and the bigger prob is that shes a REALLY nice girl and had a hard time already, so I HATE
hurting her and would miss her allot...

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut here cause I don't know anything about this.

But I really feel for you, I can only imagine how hard this is for you and all the inner pain and confusion your'e going through. I hope it all works out for you and you find your'e true bashert at the right time.

Love you brother,

Chaim

Hi Chaim,

Its always nice to get some outside support and thanks for your words.
Confusion is probs the best word to use here, like I feel when going through these
stages you start loosing your sense of right and wrong you start questioning your
own humanity, you start thinking about everything you do, have you become selfish and so on...

Dear hope613 (I am of course writing to you - your real name, not this username),

You write of 'breaking loose', and of 'finally cleaning up my neshoma before YK', truly good things. But after asking for some real detail, you clarified that you are indeed in an ongoing sexual relationship with this woman. It's unclear to me what you really want. Or it is clear that you have conflict. I understand conflict...but it is no way to live, as you are finding out.

Then you shared the pain you feel regarding your religious and spiritual frustration in terms of your learning goals, and you made it very clear that you are not a slug, but an idealist and a searcher - a 'ben aliyah'.

You also describe yourself as "a young yeshivah boy" (I quote). It is not that relevant if the woman here is 30 and you are 20, of is she is 25 and you are 24...you were premature - a bochur - while she was a sexually active person as a married woman should be.

So I have a few observations before I make a heartfelt recommendation as I would to a true brother:

1- This woman got sexual with you - a young yeshivah boy - while she was married. No matter how much of it was your seducing her and how much was her emotional desperation speaking, the fact seems to be that she was a married woman who used a younger man for sex. Plain and simple. It is irrelevant that you also used her - my point is that she used you, and continued to use you over the years.

That's a pretty unkind thing for an adult to do to a young single person, and it is also sick to do bichlal. Hashem yatzileini. For I could be there too, as I am a sex addict. So I am not judging you ill - just commenting that you were used. This is not a real 'romance'.

2- You are still tied to her. Chaza"l's expression, "keshurah eilehoh k'kelev" is no accident. You are - for years, now - tied to her. And that's a big problem. For being tied to someone means that your objectivity in this entire issue is irretrievably compromised. All the great cognitive therapy and self-help books in the universe will not likely restore your objectivity.

It also means you are not likely to leave her any time soon...and that may mean never. We do not know. You do not know. Unless of course she finds another penis than yours to use. Which she eventually will, whether you 'faithfully' stand by her, or not. For just as she was unfaithful to her husband, she will be unfaithful (and surely is presently being unfaithful) to you, if you married her one day.

Sorry, but that's what user-women do. They use. Just like user men do. We use. And when the use is over with for whatever reason, we go find another one to use.

3- Your frustrations in life goals you refer to, are very real and important. You have them because you are a good, spiritual, and holy person. Even your jealousy is based on your goodness. They are probably part and parcel with your other struggles, though your first post didn't give wind to that. Nu. I need to keep opening up more and more, so you and I are in the same boat in that way, too.



And my only recommendation to you is this:

You are way in over your head. These issues - particularly the sex you are still keeping in reserve with this now 'free' woman (who selfishly used you for her sexual convenience while she was married) - are things you need a objective, caring, and skilled third party to help you with. And you need it soon.

Not a book.

Not a forum.

And if you still relegate your life to a book or to anonymous forum, then I believe you are not really taking your life seriously. If the shame of opening up to a real person who can really help you is too much for you, then I suggest that you are like many others: who want to "do teshuvah" or "be forgiven"...but know they are not ready to make any real changes in their life.

Going it alone is a surefire sign that a person basically wants to stay the same - to remain in his comfort zone. All the regret and crying is a pretty lie, nothing more. And plenty folks live their entire lives that way, dying after a quiet life of desperation.

You do not need to be one of them. You go get some real help, man.

Love,

Dov

hope613 wrote on 06 Sep 2012 17:13:


Ok, you liked that chapter. You might consider reading the rest of the book.

I am afraid I disagree with you about the pros and cons. The reason is because I know you probably have a bright future ahead of you. You are acting like a depressed person, and you probably are. Read the rest of the book and also Feeling Good to start loving yourself regardless of your performance in life. Then when you think about this problem you will do it from an objective point of view. The objective point of view is that you have a lot of choice. Women are like fish in the sea. When you have self esteem you will choose one, you will not wait for one of them to choose you.

You evaluate people based in their past actions, not based on what they say they believe. The fact is, this girl cheated on her husband and she will probably do it to you as well if you marry her.

Trust me, don't choose your partner when you are depressed and needy. Love is not a human need, like food. It's a perk. Read the book and get over your depression. Unfortunately I know what I am talking about, but I am twenty years too late.

And in the meantime if you *must* tell yourself that you are powerless and sleep with her use birth control!

Wow, I already feel much better about having come back to this wonderful forum were I have loving and
caring family which I can talk openly too.

Like you say, I am indeed in a very big conflict, I am at war with what I want in my life, what I want in a future family and
what i feel comfortable with, with my Y'h and with the comfort of always having someone there to talk too (she is a REALLY special girl)
I know what she did was terribly wrong, but she does have answers as to way and so on, but I do find her special.

Ive been in yeshiva for many years and till to this day just cant learn, I just never succeeded and it was something I really wanted even
though I excelled in other parts of my life.

Are you saying its not possible that its true romance since we met this way, if so what is it?

Then again, you say I am tied to her, how does one untie oneself.

;nederman; It is very interesting what you mentioned about the Fisch in the see, because I do find myself
settling with girls that find me rather then looking for what I want...

Who in Jerusalem would you recommend I speak to you about this ?

I just need to finally get my life on tracks and move on bc Im sure If things go right I have such a bright future !!

Hope every body has a wonderful yoim menucha and may we focus on the up coming heilige taig

Thanks

The best thing you can do to get over your depression is to read Feeling Good. This book is for self-therapy and has been equally as effective as medications and therapy. Even if you just read it once you'll be equipped to select a good therapist, a cognitive therapist. Don't use an insight therapist (who believes that you can never change.) If you want I have a friend in Jerusalem who can track one down for you, but start by reading the book, because even if you get a therapist you get out what you put in. You found Intimate Connections so you can probably find Feeling Good as well. It's going to help you with your learning performance also. For example perfectionism can greatly hamper learning like any other task, and Feeling Good could help you address that, if that is your problem.

I didn't mean that it's not a real romance. It is. It's a great romance. But it sounds like a romance that is not compatible with your current beliefs. Not all girls who you can have a great affair with make great wives. It's not bad, it's just not what you want if you want to be a happy frum yid.

Keep posting even if things get better and let us know how you are doing. No matter _what_ path you decide to take in your life.