A slightly different perspective...

A fall can actually be a source of strength depending on what you do with it. If you get right back up and your sense of yourself as a person who will never stay down is strengthened then it is both true that you had a fall and true that it did not spiral you into a depression.

There is a saying for this in Chassidut: A yeridah for the sake of an aliyah. The aliyah would have been impossible if one had not had the yeridah in the first place.

One the one hand it is terrible to sin; on the other hand we have all been there (many of us extremely recently) and speaking for myself...I can sense a growing Yiddishkeit appreciation and essential connection to Hashem through this particular avodah that I have never had with anything else. I think there is an almost exquisite paradox in this:

All the time when I dealt with this alone my greatest  wish (at least some of the time) was to find something within Judaism that would elevate me to the point that the lust would disappear. I could never for a moment convince myself that holiness existed in fighting the lust itself. That particular exercise was just getting down in to the dirt and always failing.

Somehow after i met all of you, I looked at it completely differently. You guys showed me that the opportunity for fulfilling a mitzva by looking away, turning a thought out of your mind, making a mental stand every time lust presents itself...these oppurtunities are actually endless...and each of these mitzvahs has a very meaningfull kavanah that is lacking in almost all of the "regular" mitzvahs that I do. So now by some quirk, I spend a far greater amount of time engaged in holiness than I ever did before and that's even before opening a sefer!

My point is: Turning away from evil is unique and holy work. It is not a prerequisite to something greater. It is the essence of G-dly avodah. And if one falls (Chas V'shalom) a sincere and heartfelt teshuvah coupled with determination and an effort to strengthen oneself is an even greater accomplishment yet. The opportunities for true jewish growth within this fight are constant and endless.

Those are some beautiful thoughts from Holistic.

Yossi.L. wrote on 28 Aug 2011 08:29:


Using the alcoholism analogy, looking at a woman for long enough to feel lust (which for me is less than a second) is like taking a drink.  Viewing porn, masturbating, or (my opinion) indulging in fantasy at length is like getting drunk.

Yossi L, I think you and I are on the same page about this though.  In my journey out of the lust prison, I didn't see any practical difference between a slip and a fall.  I wasn't interested in either.  Slips lead to falls and therefore must be avoided zealously. 

I also didn't count to 90, and therefore, again, didn't need to come up with a definition of a fall that would reset the count.  I was so relieved to find all the information I learned on GYE it was like starting a new life.  I made a commitment to stay clean for the rest of my life, using proven techniques of recovery (mostly the 12 steps) one day at a time.  I blew past 90 without even noticing.  B'chasdei Hashem I'm now at 2-1/3 years.

Have a great, clean day!
Alex

alexeliezer wrote on 29 Aug 2011 15:15:


thats awesome. I am couting. i am now on day about 124. But i think really i should kind of let that go and just do it one ay at a atime. That is where the true recovery is.

Holistic's post is truly a gem ( I went ahead and read all his SIX posts,, he's making so much sense) and he is a great addition to this forum. The thought of hoping to find something in Yiddishkeit to "cure" me was equally pressing to me, and I had a true turn-around after coming here and realizing that Yiddishkeit will follow if I start serving G-d myself by not looking etc.
As far as fantasizing and looking: I don't know if you should consider it a fall for the purpose of count reset, but it is certainly a negative event akin to actual mas*****g or intentionally watching p**n. I found myself in a grip of anxiety and depression the other day (I posted about it here http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4306.msg116571#msg116571
and I noticed a physical change in me after dwelling on some "bad" images in my head: i became calmer, less anxious, and even in higher spirits (that is , untilll I realized WHAT has brought about tranquility, and then it was back to depression).
So my layman's opinion concurs to those above: lusting of any form: looking at actual or digital women, or even just memories, has the same consequences for recovery and therefore should be avoided at all costs. And if the thoughts are persistent, you are not doing something right - may be you let your eyes wonder a second longer than you should, or maybe you purposefully let your mind dwell on things you shouldn't.  The only difference with the actual fall is: since recovery is a process, you will inevitably find yourself at a setback, but if you view it as yerida l'tzoirech aliya (thanks Holistic!), then as long as you're making progress, and you  do change your train of thought, you didn't fall.

i dont know. this sounds pretty harshto me. I like the SA definition of sobriety. Braking sobriety is ahving sex with anyone other tahn your wife. this includes mast* which is essetially sex with self, and includes starting and then stopping mas* before finishing which is like starting to have sex and then stopping.

Loooking at p* while bad, and bad for us as Jews of course, is not in my opinioin a reason to sart recounting. then again, if i really was such an SA guy, I would have no infatuation with teh 90 mark, which i do. as real SA is about everything being one day at a time with no before and no after. ....

Beautiful thought by holistic. Thank you! Everyone's derech of recovery, although guided by the 12 steps, is slightly different. I know personally that if I don't consider lusting a fall then I will inevitably lust without really recognizing it. It's only because I am so focused on not falling, and I put such a strong emphasis on not lusting, that I'm able to completely stop looking before it turns in to lust.