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TOPIC: HELP-SOS 33652 Views

Re: HELP-SOS 11 May 2011 16:58 #105693

  • heuni memass
dov wrote on 11 May 2011 16:50:


Don't be fooled. He is not fighting - except to learn how to let go and let Hashem take care of what he always selfishly considered his own, private, huge problem.

[/quote]

Thats a Huge fight - my friend. Letting go is not easy. And i am inspired.
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Re: HELP-SOS 11 May 2011 16:59 #105694

  • ben durdayah
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Hey!

Sir? Sir? Why are you running like that?

Sir???

Hey Avi!

Sometimes the hardest work is getting out of G-d's way...

Let's just keep on doing it.

Ki Hinei Hachomer B'yad HaYotzer...

"Thy will be done -not mine"

Love,

E
For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is
 Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee




 
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 05:32 #105762

  • tzaddik90
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durdaya loves me!! that's another person besides myself, oh, the power of a group.....


well, remember that old fierce battle with REB O about if psychology can help jews or just chovos halvavos?....

i know it says al tiyyeh kikorach viaadaso, but i remember that since i am really nuts, i was so consumed by that machlokes, i once wrote a reply i never posted while traveling from ramat gan all the way to j-lem

so here it is, i claim no responsibility for its accuracy and editing, and it is from my pre-12 step days, but i thought s/one might find it mian'yen:


reb o sent me a google doc with his mekor from a certain famous darshan in j-lem, and i read it, pulled my hair out, and then compulsively replied (start the ggoky music):

This guy has quite a uniqe shita. He says that every jew with every problem is due to the neshama not being regua.


Even though the problem seems to lie within a particular happenstance, ie. g'machim  to pay, abuse, still, it is really all a facade. Really, says the author, the problem is that the neshama is not reguah. Why is it not raguah? Because the redemption is right around the corner and the neshama senses this, making it nervous, since it is not ready. He also says this explains why in our generation so many people are laiden with psychological problems and worries today. The author continues that psychology was devised by goyim (frued was jewish, but not erickson, horney and the rest) for goyim, and since goyim do not posess a neshama, and even their nefesh bahamis is different in nature, therefore a jew can never be helped ever by any person for any problem, via psychology, bec. since it is not coming to repair their neshama, it does not help them. And if it seems to help them (like i thought therapy helped me) it is just a trick. A bandaid on s/thing which is really internally bleeding
I would like to briefly critique the above view in light of my own, humble Torah knowledge, and vivid personal experiences.
___________________________________________________________________________
(For my own claritiy's sake, let us quickly examine the biology of a jew's spiritual dimension.
Every jew has a nefesh bihamis. Goyim have one from the 3 klipos t'mayos whom are entirely evil, while jews have one from klipas nogah, the fourth klipah, which interfaces between good and evil.


According to the above, every single act, thought, and view which comes from the goyim is construed as evil. Theyr'e every intention, even in an act of charity and kindness, is really just a facade; their wickedness may motivate them to perform a nice deed but only for the purposes of self gratifacation, competition, worry of public opinion, etc. Their act completely lacks any good or k'dusha intentions. %100. This is the gm' in avodah zarah of " chessed li'umim chatas"/the charity of the goyim is a sin. Seee also Tanya end of perek 2 who brins this from kabbalistic lit. as well, partic. the ARIZAL in ETZ CHAIM and ZOHAR, eyin sham. So this is the unargued view of gemara and kabala sources. This is also brought down in Sharei Kdusha perek one, and even shleimah of the Gr'a, perek one, and eitzos vihadrachos al pi kehilas yaakov/steipler, perek one. See footnote in Mandel eng. ed. of Tanya for references to the exceptions of the chaseedei umos hao'lam.

The jew, with his nefesh's nature being half part good and part bad,  makes it that every jew's every action is usually imbued with good intentions and kedusha, even if the act was not thought of conciously-bec. a jew's nature is to be good and holy. Carlebach said holy brothers for a reason. Even a stam act may be considered lishma. This is the view of chafetz chayim in sheim olam. Yoshor divrei emess from talmidei habesht seem to argue, eyin sham.
When a jew sins, or does something without any intent whatsoever (this is view of baal hatanya, although up above i said that chafetz chaim may argue, yeish li'ayin), the act belongs to the sitra achra, the evil side, as if it is a goyish act. This can be rectified, see Tanya).
___________________________________________________________________________
1) So i conclude as well, that even the animal and basic soul of a jew on it's lowest level is different in nature than that of a goy's.

However, what was the difference above? A difference in intention, a difference in Tumah and kdusha. HOWEVER it was not a difference in thought patters. Our physical brains work the same, and for crying out loud they even look the same. Our entire bodies work exactly the same as those of the goyim. Their experiments on headaches and it's cures work on us jews just as much. They take tylenol, we take tylenol. They use toothpaste to fend off cavaties, so do we. Our souls are different, but our bodies are the same.
Now that we have established this fact that the gentile physical body and jew body is the same, we can move to the next stage. We do not need to prove this first point because evryone can see with their eyes that this is true. If you'd like concrete written proof, see eitzos vihadrachos al pi kehillas yakov, perek alef and beis, who supports this from numerous sources. I do not have them with me, since im typing all this from the bus from memory.

2) For this stage, we must understand that the spiritual dimension affects the physical body, and vice versa. For example,we all know that if someone gets shot in the head with a gun, his soul departs his body and he dies. So we see the soul is dependent on the physical body to remain a guest in this physical world.This idea is brought down much later in the Tanya, perhaps in the forty-ish chapters, and in sharei kdusha of R chaim vital, perek alef.

The opposite is true as well-if one would shoot his neshama with a spiritual gun, like aveiros, then the sheim havaya inside each limb that was shot, would die off and be replaced with tumah sheimos. This tumah is more dead than alive, and so the person, by having tamei limbs, is now more susceptible to sickness and disease and weakness. A person CAN get physical cancer, not just as a punishment but as a natural direct result of pumping into himself the tumah of the sins that he did. This idea is also in sharie kdusha perek alef, and in beg. of likutiei maharan, around toirah zayin chess or tess.
So if a person does aveiros, he gets physically sick.
___________________________________________________________________________
(If so, why is it that when a person c'v does an aveirah, he does not get sick and bedridden right away?
The simple answer is that although a person needs spiritual power to live off of, it can be either in the form of kdusha or tumah. Therefore, although the ba'al aveirah is no longer powered by kdusha and the sheim havaya within, yet, he still thrives because of the nitzutz of kdusha within the tumah which is now inside of him. This is called "bechinas achorayim", meaning that this chump is living off of the tiny holy spark within the impure that is now resting in his physical body. This is brought down in  begining of Tanya perek (5-6) as well.

This is aside from the myriad of hundreds of variables that go into governing the effects of the spiritual dimensoin, see for example Derech Hshem for many examples, or sefer chassidim. Or sefer hamiddos. eyin sham).
___________________________________________________________________________

3) if so, that the physical affects the spiritual, and the physical within us is the same as that of a goy, that leads to the following conclusion:
A little black boy in the hood named Monroe, and a little chassidishe kid in Monroe with the last name Shvartz, if they both undergo trauma or circumstances that cause depression, like theyr'e father beating them every night with a belt and insulting them (which i hope you agree this pain is NOT attributed to the neshama not being ready for the redemtion, etc.), both of their brains, which work the same way, will be hurt. The black boy, with no neshama, will not affect his spiritual neshama bec. he doesnt have one ,while yoiley shvartz's neshama will ALSO be affected by his trauma. Notice I use the word "also".

4) So although it is undisputably true that the jew is different in his nesham and in his nefesh, NEVERTHELESS, their nefesh bihamiyos are affected the same by trauma, and repaired the same by whatever repairs and relaxes it. This is a proven fact. Jews, like me went for goyish style therapy, and their nefesh bihamis was repaired extremely and signifacantly, from being unmanagable to managable, from wanting suicide to wanting life, from lusting to being sober. This is also an undisputable fact.

5) It also is true that whatever helps that person in that situation is good for him, bec. if it is mutar and it leads to recovery, it is a very good tool to utilize, whatever it may be. What's my reason that it is good to use? Bec. it works for him! And it is mutar!

6) Now, is it a cop-out to go with a goyishe method when one can try to find a jewish method? It sure is, because while goyishe therapy DOES repair the mind, it does not focus on making a connection with God, which is our primary purpose in life. Not only is it our purpose, but it was the very purpose of our trauma being given to us, to motivate us to create that connection to God, so why take Frued and skip your purpose in life, and possibly get even more yissurim to motivate you, if you can take a chovos halvavos and do the recovry healing and connection to God all at once?
There are however a few exceptions to this-
a)if right now a person is not functioning on a level to learn and internalize the CH, he should take the goyishe road today. Why? Because he MUST begin recovery today, right now.

b)if he doesnt know how to utilize the Chovos Halvavos like R' Yeruchem and heal from it like him, then while he SHOULD LEARN TO TO LEARN AND DO MUSSAR, yet now's not the time-bec. right now he needs to recover, not learn how to learn torah. If someone's bleeding to death, and it's time for shiur in the yeshiva, he should first stop the bleeding and heal, and THEN  walk into shiur.

c)if learning Torah is Detrimental to him-ie. he has o.c.d from reading too quickly and too much (i had that!), than he cannot use the CH, and so he must take the goyish derech roght now.

d)lastly, to say that all psychology is goyish is as foolish as saying that all types of limud torah will signifacantly help in recovery. Let me explain.  For starters, in the Toirah we know that each jew interacts with the Torah on one of four levels pshat drush remez sod. A person attracted to pshat by the very nature of his soul, will not take any interest in internalizing the Torah of another level. Or, he will have an interest, but it will not be good for him,and it's like wearing really nice shoes for shabbos that are two sizes two small-it's not going to let your life operate properly when u learn some/t which is not in your cheilek.

For these very reasons, some people are attracted to chassidus, some to more simple sfarim, and some to more interesting parts of the Torah. To further complicate things, one would need to have a good understanding of the sefiros, and the concept of kollelim and of hisklalus in order to know why some people are really a unique blend of all different parts of the Torah. For example, I know someone who only is moved by mesilas yesharim. To another, it's sfas emess. To a third, it's the kuzari. To a fourth, its the lubavitcher rebbe's mamarim. Each guy's uniqely different, not even just different in his natire of what will inspere him, what just is intuectually enjoyable but not will not stimulate within him a change, and what to him is just plain boring.

Therefore, on our subject, the Tanya in hakdama says that truly not everybody is priveliged to know which arrangement and menu of torah platters and dishes will inspire him to create his connection with God and  what will help him subdue his yetzer harah. This is why one must turn to a chaccham with the ability to  help him determine which torah will help that individual.

We certainly can relate to the idea of a person not knowing which part of the Torah makes him tick-we see this in yeshivos all the time. A guy leaves at the end of first year and says

levush nolad bikdusha kinyanim of torah, meniyos of acqyuiring torah, like taavos, torah depends on his mood at mindat the time like in hakdama to tanya
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 05:40 #105765

  • tzaddik90
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heuni, sorry

i forgot to put something practical here too!

practical:
when i compulsively wrote the last post (months ago), i did it out of being nuts. in my program we learn that no matter what people around you do, but u are to blame to yourself for not being disciplined enough to know how to deal with it properly.

its 4th step work

like this:
wife two days ago said something that to me would be like shoving a knife through my eyes.
and i was just begining to reply when i said back instead "wow, your'e right, thanks alott for that comment, i learned alot from it", and i repeated this like 3 times and then wife enjoyed repeating the critisizm until she felt secure that it had turned my brain into primordial ooze

now that is practical!

and so is this:
we need to have fun and be happy, r nachman says even milee dishtusa

so since i am a little nuts i began thinking today on way back from shacharis about singing michael jackson's song i'm bad-it just popped into the head ; what did that have to do with davening? why that over all things? i may never know. now that is milee dishtusa!
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 06:31 #105769

  • Eye.nonymous
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tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 12 May 2011 05:40:

so since i am a little nuts i began thinking today on way back from shacharis about singing michael jackson's song i'm bad


Weird Al did a parody of that song (I think he liked to pick on M.J., l'havdil bein chaim l'chaim), but it would be less appropriate for S-A and more appropriate for O-E-A.

And, as for M.J. right now, he's D-O-A.

--Eye.
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 14:32 #105777

  • tzaddik90
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eye,
after seeing your beard in person recently, i could not have guessed that you knew about these things.....
the truth is i mentioned it in the post too but then took it out,

aahh, the video of those guys in the parking garage with the burgers and huge pants....
...girsah diyankusa.....what?...what did you say? that your'e son is now the same age as when i saw those music video's and he already knows shas mishnayos? .....learns night seder, avos ubanim, yeshivas bein hazmanim....uksavtem.....dirshu.....what? he doesnt even know the names of any movies? he just hangs out by saying shir hashirim friday night and getting candy? for afikomen he wants a oz vihadar travel shas? wow. ashrecha. Eretz hakodesh.....b''H....
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 15:28 #105784

  • Dov
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Reb Avi,

Your long posts are not making me jealous, they are making me dizzy. I love you, and want to you shut-up-a-yoo-face for a week or two. Even if it makes you want to strangle people. (but please don't strangle anyone)

Spend 5 minutes in a chair before every tefillah and before every birkas hamazon doing the following:

nothing

If you must think, then think only about your breathing. That's it.

And it will not work. After a while, your mind will race. But don't worry - it's mental vomit. The clutter and mess are getting vomited out. That is the way it works for many people...if you feel you must be an exception, that's too bad. Cuz you probably are not an exception, no matter how terminally unique may feel you are.

Do you hate me yet? Are people gonna post that I am an overbearing moron now? Maybe.

So?

Try it, if you want to. But if you do, then it cannot be just because you want to - but because you need to. This is big.

Hatzlocha.
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 16:26 #105792

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dov,
i am your stick. i accept the mission.
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 17:25 #105804

  • heuni memass
Oh no Avi does that mean you wont post for a week now? No no. All Dov means is keep em focused.( maybe)

Dov- I skip the long ones. Try it and you wont be as dizzy.

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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 18:51 #105815

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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overbearing moron now

Mitzva lishmo'a divrai Chachamim!!!  ;D
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 18:55 #105816

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 12 May 2011 05:32:

.......Our entire bodies work exactly the same as those of the goyim. Their experiments on headaches and it's cures work on us jews just as much. They take tylenol, we take tylenol. They use toothpaste to fend off cavaties, so do we. Our souls are different, but our bodies are the same.
Now that we have established this fact that the gentile physical body and jew body is the same, we can move to the next stage. We do not need to prove this first point because evryone can see with their eyes that this is true.......


um...er.... is this so??

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 11 Nov 2010 21:05:

I recall hearing (possibly in the name of the Chasam Sofer Ztz"l) that since a Yid is an entirely different creation than a non-jew, the medicines that heal them ought not to work by cholei yisroel, R"L. It is a chesed from Hashem that those medicines also heal a Jewish body so that the R&D, all the development needed to acquire a complete stock of diverse medication, doesn't have to be 'learned' on us!
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 19:27 #105818

  • ben durdayah
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I am not going to get involved in this one...



I'll let you two figure it out.

BTW, I saw that Chasam Sofer once, it's based on a diyuk from the Gemara Shabbos 86b.

I've heard smokers use it to refute the doctors' studies about the detrimental effects of smoking...

That's it, I'm out of here for this one...

E
For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is
 Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee




 
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 19:31 #105819

  • ZemirosShabbos
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ben durdayah wrote on 12 May 2011 19:27:

That's it, I'm out of here for this one...

E

are you going out for a smoke?
Sometimes life is like tuna with not enough mayonaise
~Inna beshem ZS

Give, Forgive
~Cordnoy

The reason I'm acting as if I'm pregnant, is because I'm expecting. I should be accepting.
~TZ
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 19:37 #105820

  • Dov
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No, probably for some Woodford!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: HELP-SOS 12 May 2011 21:18 #105824

  • ben durdayah
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No Stirah... You can drink Woodford and have a smoke at the same time (if it's not Shabbos).

I just meant that I was getting out of the argument that seems to be brewing...

Nighty Night All,

E

PS -[size=64pt][b]Hey! Avi!
IUUE

E
For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is
 Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee




 
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