7Up wrote on 01 Oct 2009 18:44:


Thank you 7up.

Kutan doesn't even remember what he posted. Need to check though, if 7up recommended it. Must be good stuff there.

He is on 4 hours sleep, in middle of trying to patch up a temporary rough patch with Gedola (=Mrs. kutan), who is also on about that much sleep (hmmm... wonder if it has something to do), busy  trying to finish up work and stuff so we can close for succos, and is kicking himself for falling back into the coffee addiction he was hoping to kick with YK.

Times like this used to produce not such nice reactions between kutan's eyeballs and the computer monitor, but bH GYE has transformed those reactions. I guess the sweetness that comes out of darkness is REALLY sweet.

Which reminds me how much hakaros hatov I owe to R' Guard and everyone here...

time to go hunting back to find those 'brilliant insights'. wow. can't wait.

Perhaps we should keep Kutan sleep deprived.

"Nichnas yayin yeitze sod" aplies to exhaustion too...

Uri,
I could imagine you had a challenging day.
It amazes me that you can
bring out of it so much positive energy.
Sleep well at your friend's.

Kanesher, you brought true pts


So true. But even more difficult to undestand. If they know what it feels like, how can they do it do their kids again?(I've asked myself this question over and over and over again....My mom still complains about her mom. Why doesn't she understand that she is doing the same thinggggggggggggggggggg!



Everything that happens just strengthens my resolve to become a better parent/person , so my kids/husband won't ever have to feel this way. Why didn't they do that?

Uri, Your simply amazing.

TrYiNg wrote on 02 Oct 2009 10:33:


I wish it were true. It would be true if we were intellectual beings. We're not. We are hardwired as well, programs and scripts deep within us. And in times of stress of anxiety we revert to what's familiar, to what we perceive as the classic roll of mother/daughter and father/son. And husband/wife.

We don't base it on the results - be based it on what we saw as a child. To a child, whatever his parents do is what should be. Hardwired. Later, when his intellect develops, he may see that that is wrong. But the wiring is still there.

The best we can with our intellect is to find methods to rewire and rescript ourselves so that our anxiety-based reactions are different. But don't expect your intellect to kick in in times of stress. You can only use it beforehand and make decisions to get therapy, live healthier, and get help.

80% of sex abusers were sexually abused themselves

Four out of five. Ouch.

My point is that even if you have teremendous resolve for "never again" you will find yourself acting in the same ways as you saw as a child unless you get help.

I'm married. And I found myself lashing out at my wife just my like father did to my mother. And I swore I never would. I saw myself losing patience with my children just like my father did.

Luckily, nothing compared to him. But enough to terrify me, and pushed me to get the help that I needed.
-----

For girls, the horror can get even deeper. Remember, it's not intellectual and has nothing to do with resolve. Often, girls who has been abused who seek out classic abusers, because that's what seems like a normal male/female relationship deep down, no matter how they preach intellectually about one. Of , they don't say "he's such a great abuser" - they say - "wow, we both like ice cream soda! must be be bashert!" and he's so "protective" (read: controlling) and he's so "concerned" (read: incapable of trust) and he's so "passionate" (read: unstable) and "guiding" (read: controlling again!) and march all the way to the chuppah. And hopefully, all the way back.

You can put an abused girl in a room of a hundred wonderful guys and she'll heat seek the one jerk like her dad. Baduk U'Menusah.
This issues need to be worked out with more then intellect. Been there, done that.

Could be some don't.


I never thought it was normal even when I was a little kid...

Proof: My siblings are married and are amazing fathers/mothers. Yes, by intellect. Or rather internal strength.

TrYiNg wrote on 02 Oct 2009 11:14:


Absolutely. Many people display remarkable resilience. And of course, I certainly hope that no one has to continue these horrible patterns.

You asked how it was possible, how people can't see. I hope I explained that; unfortunately it certainly is possible. And I think that's a possibility that should be taken into account. And again, I wish you - and your siblings - only the best in your personal lives. 

But realize marriage is intensely private. I am certain that none of my siblings - or my wife's - certainly not the single ones - realize the difficulties we've gone through - though she enjoys deep relationships with her sisters.

Once again, I don't know anything about you or your situation. I'm trying to talk about something in general.

Gut Yomtov!

Kanesher,
Your points are all very valid and cogent.
Just like to add, that the sex abuser thing is more powerful than most other abuse
the reason may be that it is the brain's subconscience way of trying to say that what happened to me when I was young was not bad and evil, and I'm gonna prove it by doing the same to others.

People abused sexually should get PROFESSIONAL help. they very usually need it.

kutan

i can personally atest to this reality.
we treat ourselves as our parents treat us
and naturally we treat other pple the same way.
i am not married and have never been.
but i had a serious girlfriend for a long period.

I treated her like trash sometimes.
And I was aware of it.
But I couldn't stop myself.

Now I realize that there was a strong need to control.
That need,as we know,is overpowering.
And I see my dad is a control freak.
And I control myself with an iron hand.
Once I give myself some space and acceptance,
I will finally be able to give others some space and acceptance.

I don't know which thread this should go in
so ill just put it here.

I received a ride today from an interesting character(israel is pretty full of interesting characters).
This guy asked me:
"What is the hardest mitzva on Succos?"
I shrugged.
"'Vehayisa ach sameach'.The Rav(idk who he was referring to,but I like the idea) says that the mitzva to be happy on succos is an all-encompassing mitzva.
Meaning:
On Succos we are not suuposed to be depressed.
We are not supposed to be down.
We are not supposed to be sad.
Or angry.
Or impatient.
Etc.....

I smiled at the man and got out of the car at my destination.
All of a sudden I realized.....
That is impossible.
What's that guy even talking about?!
But then I realzed another thing:
Even without what that guy said,the mitzvah is not so doable for me (or most anybody).

But then I chapped the answer.
Succos!
What is the idea of a succa?
A succah is there to remind us of the clouds of glory that protected us.
We go into the succah and we remember that those "clouds of glory" are still always above us,even if they aren't in the shape of clouds.
We really can live in a "succah" the whole year round.
This world is Hashem's succah.
And we're in it.
We're His special guests.
Bnei bayis really.

And that's the only way to acheive that serenity and happiness that the Torah demands of us.
When we have that security,that emunah,that bitachon....
Than "Vehoyisa ach sameach"
May you all have the bestest of chagim!
And a great shabbos,of course!
I love you all

-uri

shkoyach, Uri.

Uri

I mention you in my last post

and I am telling you the absolute

I have never met or seen a neshomah like yourself.

It's an honor to let us hear your voice

have a wonderful Yom Tov

yechida

have a fabulous y't! 8)

yechida wrote on 02 Oct 2009 14:27:


wow.
you make me blush rebbe  :-[

WHERE THE HECK ARE YOU GUYS!?!!?!?!?
IM MAMESH GOING OUT OF MY MIND HERE
IM WRITING TO RAV ELYASHIV TO GET THIS 2 DAY THING REVERSED
THIS IS CRAZINESS!!

hi, uri!
just wanted to say thanks for the tehillim- totally saved me last night
now i'm 2 days ahead cuz i didn't know where we were up to! 8)
not that i mind repeating them!
hope your doing ok!