simchastorah wrote on 09 Apr 2023 04:16:

It definitely is geshmak. No getting around that. It's just that the after effects is way, way less geshmak, to put it mildly. 

Granted, when I act out I feel disconnected from yiddishkeit, and of course it eats at me that it's an aveira. But whenever I'm struggling, what I focus on and what holds me back has nothing to do with religion. It's happiness, sanity, relationships, marriage, parenting etc. It's about how succumbing to a short lived (albeit overwhelming) desire no matter how delicious it is - will inevitably cause me a tremendous amount of pain, alot greater than the pleasure I will have.

Can this effect it has on me and my life and marriage come from the underlying fact that in yiddishkeit it's wrong causing guilt etc?

Maybe.

But whatever the cause, today it isn't so geshmak for me - for non yiddishkeit reasons.

Grant400 wrote on 11 Apr 2023 13:46:

Seemingly looking at it from a regular secular scope on the topic, there’s a lot to be said from their points of view. Goyim have a lot to be said although nothing compared to the destruction amount of sites and sources for it so may be overlooked.

in a way as I heard from a Rav-
Before one focuses on becoming A Yid...
One must focus on becoming A Human.

Obviously, this is a human like nature and etc.. on that we are all normal humans, just that first step is to be sure we are complete in the human aspect and then to focus on yiddisha aspects, (I don’t have a mashal right now) but hope you chapp what I’m saying.

Its fine you have such view, especially when it talks to you and helps you grow, whenever the time comes.. people throw at you “torah/yiddisha” views because they live by it and may very be at those stages, and capable to hear it, some skipped to only yiddisha views could be because of their upbringing but the human aspect fix didn’t need to be stressed on, or some may be well passed it. 

sorry if it sounds Chinese Hatzlacha

Hi all

I'm b'h holding at 87 days clean, quite near the 90 day mark. Most days I have no urges, though some days I have small ones, and even more infrequently I have big ones. 

Over all, staying clean these last few months has not been so hard. There have been a few days which were definitely very hard, but in general it's been pretty smooth.

Now before you turn away from here and say, thanks a lot buddy, but for me it is crazy hard so I have nothing more to hear from you, let me clarify. The staying clean itself has not been the main focus of my effort. But I've spent a tremendous amount of time focusing on what it is that causes me to struggle. And this has not been easy at all. I'm talking about looking deep within and digging up the feelings which I have tried to medicate using this nasty garbage, (as well as weed which b'h i'm now clean from as well.) And working with those feelings in various ways. I have spent an average of an hour a day on this avoda, if not more. When urges do come, the way that I have been dealing with it is with mindfulness (shout out to chancy) and with looking at it in the context of the deep painful feelings which i have and understanding that it's really a misguided desire for connection, for feeling good about myself, for feeling loved, and that - fortunately or unfortunately - it is an extremely ineffective way to achieve those things.

That's been the main effort on my part, but I can't say it's been the main thing which helped me. I can't overstate the power of connecting to others regarding this struggle. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why this is so powerful. I think it's a combination of a few things, but I'm sure there's more.

For one - when we have become mired in the habit of this degrading and painful behavior, we come to view ourselves as bad and dirty people. This makes it only so much harder to stop. But when you can say to another - i am doing this stuff - and they look back at you and say i fully understand that you're doing this stuff, but i stil believe in you and see you as a good person - it's like a lifeling from above that you can grab on to and pull yourself out with. slowly slowly you can say - i think i'm good i think i'm good (like the adorable little train of our childhood book) - and pull yourself up out of the mud to see yourself like your friend sees you. For this reason it's very important that the person you open up to be someone who will see the good in you and focus on it. So choose wisely. But don't be so wise in the choosing that you choose no one.

Another thing about a real relationship - accountability. Even if you have a chart over here and you post about where you're holding, which is great and terrific and should not be minimized. there is something so much more powerful about a real relationship. The main relationship which has helped me, with the wonderful HHM who has helped so many to break free, has been through email and phone conversations. I have also opened up to a few people in person, and this was powerful as well. But even over the phone, and using email with your real name, it's a real relationship. When the person on the other end can hear your voice, and all the subtlety of emotion which we willingly and unwillingly convey with our voices, they are seeing you in a way which a post here and there on the forum will not allow them too. (All this is really relevant to the point above as well.) And when someone is keeping tabs on you - on YOU, the real person, not a name in the cloud who pops up in GYE every once in a while - the effect that it has on your will to stay clean is tremendous.

Another aspect to a real relationship, and this is specific to a wise and exerienced person - guidance. We have become confused. We think that the bitter is sweet and the sweet is bitter. If we weren't confused, we wouldn't keep doing something that hurts us. If you think that the confusion is limited to this one behavior, think again. Partly because this behavior gets at the core of what we are, sexuality being so profound a part of us, and partly because confusion in general has a tendency to be more general than any one area. For this reason, as we go through the journey of cleaning up our act, having a wise and clear person to ask questions to, to guide you regarding decisions which your confusion makes more difficult is very important. 

Other things that have helped - learning a sefer on shmiras eynayim daily. I've been learning v'haer eineinu every day and it has had a profound impact. It is not addressing p* but controlling our eyes on the streets. But when we put a daily focus on not gazing even at tzniusdik women it really helps to come to see ourselves as people who just don't do that stuff. And all the more so p*.

Celebrating the victories. This is huge as well. When you have a victory, and any victory at all, do something to celebrate it. Embrace the feeling of success. Be mischazek in seeing yourself as a good clean person. A few times when I have resisted looking at what I shouldn't look at on the street, even if afterwards I slipped up and looked for a second, if for a few seconds I was matzliach not to look, I celebrate. I go and buy something at the bakery. I sing a song of victory. Because it is a victory. And recognizing it gives it more power.

As a married person, working on gaining a proper approach to intimacy is also very important. It is impossible to engage in these behaviors and not corrupt your view of what intimacy is really all about. And this is a travesty. Because besides for proper intimacy forming the foundation of a healthy and happy marriage, it is also what we are really seeking out when we turn to this nasty imitation of it. And if only we would have proper inimacy, it would be so much easier to expose p* for what it really is, and to turn around and say "that's not the thing i want." But when we corrupt the intimacy by replacing it with this garbage we lose 1) that clarity and 2) that thing itself, which is what we really want and need.

I am being modeh to Hashem for His divine assistance in my staying clean. I recognize that at any moment Hashem could send me a challenge beyond my ability to overcome. Though it's been a few months I have a long way to go. I am far from a shleimusdik person. I have much I need to work on. I have still not gotten to the bottom of my painful feelings, and as long as I have not done so the YH has the opportunity to try and use those feelings to make me be nichshal. And even once I have gotten to the bottom, if I ever do, this is an area where the YH has no lack of methods of trying to get us to slip up. The purpose of this post is not to say I did it, me, me, me. The purpose of this post is to emphasize the things which were in my control which made it easier. Because as much as we must rely on Hashem, the decisions we make are crucial.

I pray to Hashem that after coming out and saying all this stuff He not embaress me by sending me a challenge to hard for me to overcome. So that I'll have to come and say, Hey guys remember all the advice? Well it didn't help me.... Though the truth is I am fully confident that there is truth in what I'm saying, and this post should be a reminder to myself in the future if nothing else.

when i was thinking to post, i was thinking about how i wanted to write about what has helped me without c'v giving the impression that it think it was me, me, me, but recognize that Hashem has been involved every step of the way, and that at any moment if for some reason He were to choose so, he could send me a nisayon beyond my ability to overcome.

two minutes later, i opened up a 'office'-like program on my computer. low and behold, in the thumbnails of recent files, there was a pornographic picture. i guess i haven't opened up this program in the last few months. 

b'h it was too small to really see. it was a thumbnail of smaller pictures. but it was clear what it was. i was tempted to gaze at it. with help from Hashem i controlled myself and deleted is as fast as possible without gazing at it.

Please Hashem. I know you can send me nisyonos at any time. Please don't. Please. I want to be a clean and happy person.

"I guess one is who I think I am and the other is who I want to be"

One of my Rabbaeim once told me something that I think about all the time. The right way to look at it is not that today I am the sum of my failures and I have the Ratzon to become a different and better person tomorrow. Rather I - in my essential essence - am what my Ratzon Pnimi is. My essence is defined by who I am in my Ratzon. Sometimes the imperfect outside doesnt YET match who I really am. Just like the contractor doesn't always manage to build the house according to the plans, and he needs to go back. The details of my struggles and failures are critically important. They are not ME.
Perhaps it could be helpful to think about it this way - you ARE simcha, even now, but the external struggles you're dealing with are sadness. It's helped me to think that way...

Thank you for this tremendous Chizzuk

It's hard for me to believe it, but maybe the fact that I struggle with p&m is really not my fault. Maybe I'm a good person, and it's not my fault that I was exposed to this stuff as a kid, as a sad suffering kid, and found something that for a few minutes would rescue me from my suffering. It's not my fault that I was suffering, and it's not my fault that I couldn't help but do this stuff to escape from my suffering. And to some extent I may struggle with this for the rest of my life. And that's not my fault. I am not shirking responsibility for anything that i did 'm'yom amdi al dayti.' But the fact that i struggle - maybe it does not make me 'less.' Maybe it does not make me 'messed up.' And maybe it does not make you 'messed up' either.

R' SimchasTorah - you hit the nail on the head! Many rabbonim and therapists have used the term onais to describe strugglers who were introduced to pornography at young ages. Of course, they are not suggesting one should continue being oiver issurim. The point is that one must not view himself as a rasha or a loser - he should understand in what context the bad habits developed - and while being at peace with himself start the process of breaking free.To explain this onais perspective: Guys were raised as temimusdige children, learning, davening, and doing many mitzvos. They were taught to stay away from aveiros, and they did. However, they did not receive any education about sexuality. Nobody immunized them by explaining changes in the body, the issur of masturbation, or the dangers of pornography (this is slowly changing and some kids are BH being prepared for the realities of our hyper exposed and stimulating world). Somewhere between ages 11 and 15 - as youngsters who have not yet developed reasoning skills, yet their bodies began maturing puberty wise - they were introduced to hard core pornography, and the physical reactions to viewing it, including masturbation. Having spoken to many many guys (boys aged 16 and up, married fellows up to 65 years old - yeshivish, chassidish, modern orthodox, chabad, sefardic - successful businessman, maggidei shiur, klal people - this mageifa is everywhere), i can attest that at those tender ages, although the child "feels something is wrong'', they never really heard how serious this stuff is and how habit forming watching can be. Remember they are being indoctrinated in this garbage way before marriage is even in their minds, so they have no concept that sexuality has anything to do with normal and healthy intimacy. For many kids, seeing this stuff is massively traumatic. They grew up viewing the adult world around them as safe, with predictable individuals. Parents, the shul rabbi, rebbeim and teachers, the policeman, the mail man, the grocery store owners - these are all safe moral upright people. All of a sudden, they are exposed to very evil looking adult behavior that they cannot wrap their hands around. They are not witnessing healthy love and intimacy. And subconsciously they begin to wonder "My parents that demand me to be erlich and fine do "that stuff"? My rebbi? The rabbi? The policeman?" This is trauma. And no, he is much too embarrassed to approach any adult about this. Sometimes a boy is even afraid that he may have damaged himself physically and can't share that fear with anyone - he harbors that fear for years.So typically, the bochur goes back for more. This is due to the fact that in trauma, one returns to his/her abuser for more - the abuser in this case being the computer. Secondly, being that when one is hyper stimulated by all these erotic sights and sounds one receives a dopamine rush in the brain, boys train themselves to use this fantasy land as a pacifier. Instead of learning healthy ways to self regulate, boys, bochurim and men use this garbage to relieve boredom, stress, anxiety, rejection, or any uncomfortable emotion.Meanwhile at some point, this otherwise erliche bochur at some point discovers the very serious issurim involved and is devastated. He now desperately attempts to stop - but without outside help it is extremely difficult. Yiush - hopelessness sets in. Guys get super broken over this, and again are too embarrassed to ask for help. They view themselves as "the biggest rasha and loser in the world - if only people would know". They feel hypocritical - here they daven long shmona esrei, keep big shiurim for matzah Pesach night, drive their mothers and wives nuts with all kinds of chumras, and meanwhile they are doing terrible things. Many Yom Kippurs are spent in tears over this - but to no avail. (In fact, Motzai Yom Kippur is a common "fall" time due to the need to self-regulate after all the stress of intense davening and fasting). The suffering, the tzerbrochenkeit, the mental anguish is too much for so many otherwise great guys. Rach"l, depression, anxiety, and self harm (even suicide) are unfortunately all too often, serious outcomes of this matzav.

Can anyone not describe the above scenario as anything other than an onais?

Hashem Help Me wrote on 05 May 2023 10:55:

This ought to be on GYE homepage and read once a day!
Thanks so much

Thank you Rebbi

simchastorah wrote on 05 May 2023 06:45:

it's true that in general we don't understand how to resolve how Hashem's complete knowledge and control leaves room for us, for our b'chira. However we know with full faith that we do have b'chira, and we have to take responsibility for our actions. Even in this area, I don't mean to shirk responsibility for the aveiros that I've done. Like HHM was saying above there does seem to be an element of ones over here, but who can say that nothing that I've done falls within the realm of my responsibility? No one. 

What I mean to say is not that I'm not responsible for my actions, some of them I am and some of them I'm not. I am over 20. But the fact that I struggle with this parsha, that it's a real nisayon for me, that it's an element in my life, that it's something which I struggled with as a teenager and as an adult, that I don't have to take responsibility for. I don't have to say I chose to have the struggle. I got involved with it at a point in life where it would be absurd to expect me to overcome it, and that created a struggle which stayed with me past that point.

What about those of us (or maybe it's just me) who never did anything wrong as kids and only after getting married KNOWINGLY got involved in this garbage?

You are not the only one (just look around the forum, there are others)

You may have KNOWINGLY got involved in this garbage, but did you knowingly create within youself the magnetic pull that made it seem so desireable and magical? Did you knowingly create the feelings of pain and loneliness that you're trying to numb through escaping into this fantasy world? Was everything going so great, just peaches, and then you calmly decided "hey, how about I destroy my sense of self with porn"?

For me it's easy to say that the struggle comes from before I had full daas because I did get involved with it as a teenager. But that's not really the point. The point is that the parts of me (and you) that cause me to struggle, while I wish they weren't a part of me, don't have to take over my sense of who I am. I don't have to believe I have some kind of twisted porn gene deep within my soul. 

Yeshayahu 41:6 wrote on 09 May 2023 03:06:

They should consider themselves lucky..... Im serios as a heart attack....
Its a different world, once your mind is fully formed, things dont get as stuck and warped as when it damaged while still growing. 
Im sure its hard but count yourself lucky and thank Hashem that you didnt have this a child. 
As young as a can remember myself, I always had this issue, I remember another young boy told other boys not to play with me because im (was) a 'Chazer' that still hurts me! I was in trouble with a few yeshivas because of this issue, I was thrown out twice! At which point my father found out of course! 
Do you have a clue how painful that is? Oh Hashem have mercy......

Dance and thank Hashem and know that you have it easier then some of us. BH!