If we're sharing the current state of our hands: here's a dry, washed 2000 times over the past 2 weeks, built a bunch of Sukkahs, dinged up, dry cold weather, feels like sandpaper hand.

You can also call hands-free if you have earbuds
313-444-2264

chosemyshem wrote on 30 Oct 2024 17:30:

Thank you all for your responses.
I'll go with this for now. Thank you @chosemyshem.
I may have many stresses, worries and questions.. but masturbation is not the answer. On the contrary it will just leave me with another bunch of questions...

It's tough though. The struggle isn't over. I'm just pushing it off...

it is natural for your body to feel drawn to the "free" life that others can live.  It is natural to feel deprived.  That is, until you internalize that the reason you are not acting that way is because you are choosing something that is more precious to you.  If you are not choosing the lifestyle that you are living, and are living as a frum yid begrudgingly (because it is expected of you), the grass will always seem much greener and more exciting on the other side of the fence.

Resisting the thrills of the forbidden is not an annoying necessity. The resistance is the purpose of life, the source of your growth and the real reason that the forbidden thrills exist.

best wishes for continued success,
​vehkam

vehkam wrote on 30 Oct 2024 19:25:

That's the problem.
I'm not a Ger Tzedek nor a BT. I've not chosen my situation but rather been forced into it. Been bought up in a heavy, serious way. Been told to learn all day. Been paid to stay in Kollel. Working is OK for others but not for me because "כלל ישראל needs me". I feel squashed by the system. 
I know that the life as a yid is the best life, but I'm מוחל טובות. I rather חיי הפקר. I know many sensible, normal upright Goyim who are raising sweet families of 2 children. They get their sleep. They're hard working. They enjoy nice holidays. A fancy car without guilt. They had their fun as teenagers. They still have occansional affairs (however good your wife is, it gets boring, and it's fun to have an affair..).

I didn't daven mincha today because I have no cheshek. I can't get myself to daven mariv - vus far a ponim hot es to stand there in front of Hashem mumbling the Shmonei Esreh without any interest.

I'm so burnt out.

are you living for only this world?

You only have a short time here. It would be sad to spend your life living in a way that satisfies those around you but is not really what you want.

If you are able to figure out what it is that you really want to accomplish while you are here, then you can start living in a way that gets you to that goal. You won’t be sidetracked by things that draw you away from that path.

(If intellectually you believe that you have chosen a path that gets you to your goals, then you can work to ingrain it into your heart as well. )

Thank you @vehkam.
I've PM'd you.

upanddown wrote on 30 Oct 2024 22:30:

Hey, I wanna see it:)

upanddown wrote on 30 Oct 2024 21:55:

Hi brother I really feel your pain it's one of the biggest issues our generation is dealing with.
I've been thinking a lot about this due to me needing to deal with this daily with my talmidim and I've spoken with big rabbunim.

So I'll try to put in my 2 cents just a thought with hashem putting into my head what to write.

Let's narrow this down abit. Being burnt out of the system can obviously only be coming to someone who's living for and within the system. {Which is how we've been brought up and there's basically no way out, the whole chinuch and yeshiva world rightfully has to run on a system but it just doesn't work for everyone}.

Now let's imagine we're living in the times of the bais hamikdash when hashem was begalui he was the centerpiece in every Jews life, it was a time when all the nations bowed to the Jews we were the superior and they were {at least some of them} were our slaves, a time when the wild animals escorted the Jews and served as our guards {although almost never needed because everyone feared the Jews} a time when money grew on the trees for the Jews, a time when a Jew was able to speak to hashem as if he we're his brother, he literally felt the listening ear of hashem AND DIDN'T JUST BELIEVE IT.

Would you still think anyone would get burnt out?
Would anyone still be seeing green grass on the other side?
Would anyone still be looking for fake pleasures?

The answer is clearly NO the drop out rate would probably be down to almost zero, maybe some mentally ill people would still be struggling but that's it.

But now is not then, so what's the point here? 

The real question is with what is NOW different than THEN?

The answer to that is very simple, hashem is just not the centerpiece anymore, the system is the centerpiece.
But in reality it's much deeper than that, the real difference is LOVE, THEN we openly saw and felt hashem's love, but NOW we don't.
The r' r' zusha of anipoli explained the mamar chazal בעוקבתא דמשיחא חוצפה יסגי וימאסו יראי חטא, that the chushuva yidin in the end of times will hate the mehalach in avodas hashem through yiras chet, rather they will be craving ahavas hashem liyisrael , we're craving hashem's love, but we just don't feel it.

So what now?

For that we have to rewire our brain's, drop the system there's no love there, rewire your brain and start living a yiddishkeit of love. As far as the people holding you in contempt and forcing you to stay in kollel or anything else, we'll talk about that later.

So to start feeling hashem's love there's a lot of ways to achieve that, YES IT'S VERY HARD, but it's achievable, 1st and strongest example is tefila, obviously not the way the system tought you, but how about trying to sit down on your bed for 5 minutes every night and just talking your heart out to hashem as if he we're your brother sitting there and drinking up every word you say, as r' avigdor miller used to say, "go to the payphone {for those who know what that is} and make believe you're talking to your mother and say hello hashem it's me moishy (whatever your name is) how are you doing? By me I had this crazy day etc." 
When doing this prayer eventually turns into a normal conversation not just mumbling words, and pirush hamilos, is really a knockout, every second word describes hashem's love to you.

I guess you'll figure out more examples on your own, I'm just going way to long.

Now as far as the people holding you in contempt, once you start having a loving relationship with hashem and with yiddishkeit, all that falls away, if it's parents, it becomes a loving mitzvah of kibud av, which you'd love to do because of you feel hashem's love you automatically love him back and you'll do even something that you sincerely hate, and if it's just the system and you know there's no mitzvah at all, {not talking about the mitzvah of learning, in a case where it's a matter of being able to support your wife, the mitzvah of being mekeim the kesuba might out weigh it,provided that one still is koveia itim)} then out of sheer love to hashem you'll just ignore everyone and do what makes you feel loved by hashem.

With much LOVE caring and praying for you

It seems like your struggling with the decision whether or not to leave kollel and are perhaps conflicted about what you "should" vs what you "want" to do?

Two Suggestions?
1) Have you read Ben Torah for Life? At the beginning I think he provides a nice Hashkafa which could help balance some of the emotional part of what you may be feeling
2) If you haven't had a frank discussion with your wife, please do. It makes facing the "world" that much easier and is also a tremendous growth opportunity

kavey wrote on 31 Oct 2024 10:50:

Thank you for your care.
I've done both. I've read Ben Torah for Life, it's a fantastic book. The problem is that I'll forever feel like a failure. Like a lost opportunity. I'm blessed with a very sharp brain, have vast knowledge in Shas and also in Halacha to a certain extent. Nevertheless I feel like a squashed tomato. For the past many years I've been learning with very little motivation. I'm watching others who have been learning for many years without obtaining a position, shrivelled in their own being, 50 year old guys still very busy preparing their coffee while schmoozing about the latest hack... absolutely ridiculous. Is this what the Chazon Ish wanted when he said everyone should be learning for the next 2 generations? The few dafim that are learnt in Kollelim nowadays during the entire vinter zman can be done in half the time.
Is this a topic for GYE forums? Of course it is. It has a direct effect on the Kedusha struggles. Work hard and learn hard and you're sorted. תורה שיש עמה מלאכה משכחת עוון. Chazal knew what they're talking about. 50% of battles with the יצרא דעריות is preventable. If I were to be occupied with working and learning, I'd be struggling with P&M as much as with Loshon Horah - in certain places, with certain people etc, not constantly. 

My wife knows about my struggles (besides for the sexual ones). She's very much on board and supportive. She's not very passionate for learning, but that can be (partly) blamed on myself. In general, she's not spiritual at all, if I were to become a chiloni she'd happily join me... (I can blame her for some of my decreasing enthusiasm.) So at the end of the day it's up to myself to decide how I want to go further.

I'm very torn.
I'm frustrated.
I'm upset with our leaders.

upanddown wrote on 31 Oct 2024 12:42:

Shalom Brother,

It's hard. Being upset with the world doesn't change it though. Little tiny me does not have the ability to change the system. Little tiny me doesn't have to surrender to the system either - at least not entirely. I can be the biggest little tiny me, and Hashem will decide what will or won't come from that. 

Do you suppose that HHM had this grand plan from the start, of becoming a friend and healer to so many Yidden? I'd suspect that it usually starts from a small yet significant choice to take action. What can I do? It's not within my power to change the world, but it is 100% within my power to try and change my world. And then sometimes Hashem does takeh change the world through you. You can end up saving lives, and families, and future generations.

Indeed, what can YOU do?

Kol Tov

BenHashemBH wrote on 31 Oct 2024 13:32:

Spot on. 
Will have a think...
אם אין אני לי מי לי
Thank you!

upanddown wrote on 31 Oct 2024 12:42:

Thank you for sharing, and very incisive thinking. 

Sounds like you've got a lot going on, and I wish you hatzlacha and clarity. 

To echo BHBH's point with a twist. Most normal people want to accomplish. That's one of the fundamental drives a person has. Especially for men, accomplishment generally revolves around changing the world. There are special people who can see each daf gemara they learn as creating a precious stone, cut and polished to perfection. But some people don't see that. Hence, they stick around in kollel for various reasons (societal pressure, belief that it's "right", laziness, pick whatever aligns with your worldview) but slowly die inside from a lack of accomplishment. I have no idea what the percentages are (and I feel like I must mention that it's generally a bad idea to say negative things about large populations of righteous people.)

As Rav Leuchter has pointed out, if you were starting a new kollel you would not fill it with the older chevra, you'd want younger fresh guys. Something is deeply wrong with a system that results in older kollel people stagnating. 

Accomplishment doesn't have to mean leaving kollel. And there's for sure always going to be an element of yetzer hara in any desire to leave to learning. But smooshing yourself into a system that results in net less avodas hashem for your personal situation is also probably not a good idea. And feeling frustrated and stuck every day is so painful (and btw, that feeling is a lot more common in the workplace but that's another schmooze). 

I hope you get the clarity you need to make good decisions.  

upanddown wrote on 31 Oct 2024 12:42:

I feel a lot in common with  your post. It's true that feeling good about your trajectory in life has a big impact on kedusha

I'm also in the kollel system, wondering where I will be at the end of it. I'm younger so I'm not holding by deciding what I do next, for now I am happy to learn. But I totally get your feeling of being stuck where you are. It's a problem that even if someone is koneh major yedios in kollel, you can still end up feeling like your going nowhere.

I think that the kollel system was very matzliach in the last few decades, it is now a norm to go to kollel and be a yungerman as a lifestyle choice. But also with the larger numbers in the system comes new issues. I think for us the system will probably undergo a big shift, what a yungerman does after kolel can't be just getting a shtella if there are 10 guys vying for each spot. You just end up with loads of people just sitting and learning for life like you see in EY but I don't know how many places can work like that

My friend, you are in Kollel but you are unhappy. 
So leave and go work! 
But family and friends will look down on you?
Ok so stagnate and stay in Kollel and be miserable. 



Can I ask, is it really true that people will judge you badly for going to work? Do you care what they think? 
Ultimately you are responsible for your own life. Not your dad, mom, Rebbe, Rosh Yeshiva or even Hashem. Only you. 
You need to sit down and figure out your own life. 
Thinking about non Jewish teenaged girls isn't gonna help you figure it out. That's just a little section of your body below your belt giving you fantasies. 

What do YOU want your life to look like, based on the things you are in control of. 
No one else will do it for you. 
No one else can do it for you. 

This has nothing to do with Judaism. Just life in general