Bigmoish wrote:


My impression was very similar, but I only speedread it. When the therapist told me that they won't commit to whether it is a religious concept, I suspected that they are not coming out and saying so because they don't want to turn off the atheists out there.

As I put in my email to the group, there is a Lev Eliyahu on the posuk of Lapesach Chatos Rovetz that discusses two types of Yetzer Hara - a natural one that can be overcome, and a supernatural one that you cannot overcome without Hashem's help. If I have time tonight I will review to see if I can find some answers for waydown. If I have time after that I will review the chapter more thoroughly.

Meanwhile I am listening (while I work) to Rabbi Twerski explaining powerlesness - guardyoureyes.com/GYEFiles/MP3s/DC/Rabbi%20Dr.%20Twerski%20-%20True%20meaning%20of%20powerlessness.mp3

yes like I said if we take hashem into the equation it works totally different. hashem made lust and he can take it away.

(Although if the line between lust and love is obviously defined then I will throw out a question. During the churban bais rishon anshei knesses hagdola were able to ask hashem to get rid of the yetzer for avoda zora. When they tried doing that for gilo aruis chicken's weren't matting so they had to bring it back. Why not take away the lust yetzer but leave love in place. People would still mate because they love each other? OK its really a side point.)
Furthermore as I said before hashem wants us to teshuva and with a little push on our own he will surely help us. (peschu li peschi shel manat vani eftich lcha pesach).

So yes with hashem the concept works. But Cordnoy vehemently disagrees with you guys. He says leave g-d out of this. Just believe in some higher power and we will be helped. Perhaps since I am a frum yid, I should stop dwelling on whether g-d is that higher power or some other mytsical being. Perhaps if I can't understand that higher power without connecting it to g-d I can recover too? Cordnoy, please help out here. Is it Okay to approach this higher power aspect as I can't fight this alone so I need two higher powers. 1) the inner kocahs that I never believed I had. 2) The help of hashem. Or must I say no there is some higher sepheric thing in this universe that helps those that want to help themselves?

Have you read it yet? I think most of your questions are answered in the text.

Yes I read it. And to sum it up. it sounds like yes that higher power is g-d. The writer is only suggesting that one (C"V) doesn't have to totally believe in g-d in the sense as us yidden believe. Rather he must simply acknowldege some type of g-dly presence. This all circles me back to my orginal argument. As a frum jew it would seem to me that beieving that hashem will help me and turning to him for assistance is defintley the way to go? And thats the higher power I should turn to? Is that the correct approach?

Oh Big Mosh as to my level of observance, I am a former kollel guy and a pretty well respected ba habais. (Which makes this struggle even more embarassing)

waydown wrote:

Hey! Are you me?

LOL!

If I am and you are you then I am not I and you are not you!

waydown wrote:

Read what I wrote the not dieing is about surrender. My concept of surrender means that I surrender the right or expectation to lust. I can do that because it is optional. If it were not optional, i.e. my life depends on it, I could not perform that surrender.


Of course we can win battles. But if you are always waging battles with an addiction you will lose the war. Surrender means to me that I stop waging battles, I just walk away.
Powerless to me is a realization not about the need to lust (that is surrender) but rather about the futility of waging endless battles that you will inevitably lose. That is what powerlessness means, that eventually you will lose, despite the exhausting fighting. Therefore you need to try a different method.



First off I clearly said we have the power to not take the first sip. Though I think my view of the sip may be different. I am also starting to rethink that position anyway in light of recent petsonal events.
Second, are you an atheist? If not then why are you getting distracted by the dynamics of an atheist in a 12step program? If you have listened to R Taub's lectures you will heat how he addresses this issue.
Lastly, I have to admit that I struggle between the line of my power and G-d's power. Because I do have bechira and therefore some power. But I also know that when I was only using my power I got nowhere fast. When I started to ask G-d for His help because I was clearly not up to the task myself, it really was magic. A miracle. I have no other explanation. Even now with the help of hindsight, I still have no freaking clue how I went 180 days clean (not sober) after the first time I really reached out to Him. This is after 20 years of lust, fantasy, porn and masterbation.
Yes it is a miracle. I have no other answer but that.

Thanks for your clarity.

And yes I htink we are on the same page re a higher power. At the end of the day use g-d as the higher power I seek.

And yes once you come onto hashem there is no need to have rational answers. G-d works in irrational ways. Henceforth near ike miracles can happen

I also hear your point that if the altitude is fight we will eventually loose. (Although I am not 100% sure about that but I get your point)So we must surrender to hashem.

The only thing I still differ with you is, that I don't think realizng we won't die without lust has to do with surrender. When I fight I also realize I won't die without lust. After all I won some battles and didn't die. I don't need to surrender to realize that.

waydown wrote:


That's not what cordnoy said.

waydown wrote:


Firstly, I said that knowing your life does not depend on frequent ejaculation is a prerequisite for surrender not vise versa. In fact I have know that for 3 years now, but surrender is fairly new to me.

And last point, please don't disect my words like it is Gemara. I am not that learned or precise. I am just a schlub with an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions. But perhaps my experience can be of some value to you. At the very least writing these posts keep the ideas in them sharp in my mind. Don't let the detail interfere with your recovery.

MBJ wrote:


MBJ...well said....like usual.
Keep on sayin'
Keep on truckin'

Ok guys so just tell me if I am in the right track.

Here is my take on this whole thing being that I am who I am as a frum jewish addict;

The key is that we are powerless and can't win the war on lust. Thus, we say ok hashem our life is unbearable and we can't continue living like this. We want to stop and we hand it over to you to help us. Since hashem wants people to do right he will help those that want to get help. So as long as we have the will power and we are willing to take measures to avoid flirting with lust (IE filters, throwing out our old habits, magazines, contacts etc...) the higher power/ hashem will do the rest.

Did I get it right???

waydown wrote:


The Amazin' Rhythm Aces would be proud!