doingtshuva, Only you (and I guess your therapist) know yourself, what your MO's are and where you are holding. I'm concerned for you and very reluctant to say anything that may steer you in the wrong direction. That being said, if your acting out involves any illegal, risky or injurious behavior to yourself or others, or any behavior that will lead to public embarrassment to you or or your family, then you have no choice but to any length necessary to recover and that includes getting over the fear of going to an SA meeting. I don't mean to exclude, diminish or make light of any less serious behaviors, but if your behaviors are very damaging from a legal or health stand point then you are playing with fire by holding back with your recovery because your too embarrassed to go to a meeting.

But instead of listening to my advice, which based on two months experience in SA (albeit a lifetime of addiction)and no knowledge of your situation, you should private message, call or otherwise get in direct contact with one of the administrators here, like Dov, or at the very least the O'Fishel Thread-Bumper, Avrom/Cordnoy, for some real advice. If you want to private message me, I will be happy to give you my phone number and I would never divulge your info to anyone. Or you could just PM me and we can talk that way. Personally I would contact Dov asap.

Hatzlacha! Yakov

Phone meetings are actually less safe than face to face meetings, you never know who's listening. In a face to face meeting you know exactly who's there. Because of that what often happens is that people attend phone meetings but use fake names and don't share completely openly, so they're still allowing the fear and shame to fester in the darkness. Face to face is far safer and more effective.

But like Serenity I don't want to steer you wrong. Some people have got sober through phone meetings, they just didn't do much for me. Whatever works.

Serenety I'm Burich Hashem not involved in illegal or risky behaviors.
I came to Gye cause I was struggling with the internet.

Waston your right, and I would add that the forums are also not so safe as the SA meetings.

Meanwile I'm B"H doing well, I'll just continue doing what works, safe and quietly.

So does someone (I) who was struggling only with the internet have what to gain in meetings?
It's not advised so in the Handbook.

I'm B"H doing well for the moment, but I'm still scared from relapsing.

Please clarify what it means that you struggle only with the internet.
Do you lust in the street?
What about the bedroom?
How are you in the bathroom?
Do images in a newspaper or magazine excite you?

Thanks

I wont go into details right now.

But one point I would like to bring out, that before I joined Gye I thought that the internet is the problem.

Today I know that it's only an outcome of all my past lusting.
If I don't want to fall back in that trap, I should definitely be very careful on the street in the supermarkets and in every room through out the entire day.

Cordony I like it!

doingtshuva


Can you recover with the 12 Steps?

I don't know of anyone working the steps who have the title Recovered. Even Dov (and people like him) who's been clean for 17 years is still considered a Recovering Addict.

WHOAH! Talk about skepticisim!

No, he's just being straightforward and honest. If it is an addiction, then there is no cure. We can work on controling it, but it's a lifetime pursuit.

The Big Book does say we can recover.

But remember that the purpose of the steps is to grow closer to Hashem, so there is no end point.

Watson wrote:


Is that the purpose?
Is the purpose to become sober?
To lead a manageable life?
Step 11 does say that we now have had a spiritual awakenin', and step 1,2 and 3 are obviously filled with this as well, i.e., surrenderin' to a Higher Power; the steps about prayer as well, but is that the purpose, or the method?

I am also havin' trouble comin' to terms that this is the purpose if they make such a big deal about sayin, "god, as you understand Him," and this is written and prescribed for atheists as well. The purpose can then not be to bring one closer to God; no?

Thanks

Say you're out at the park and need to use a disgusting smelly public toilet, afterwards you leave the toilet and head back to the ice cream truck. Each step takes you further from the toilet and closer to the ice cream.

Each of the 12 steps takes you further from the addiction and closer to G-d.

Vayetzei Yaakov mib'er shova vayeilech choronoh.

The steps are designed to bring a person closer to the G-d of their understanding.

I agree with the mashal, but I am not sure about the nimshal.
I agree that one who does the steps will get closer to the god of his understandin', but is that the purpose.
Do the founders say this?
I couldn't find this in the books that I have.

I feel that I am not just nitpickin', although I am known to do that - at times.
I think it might be more than that, but I can't exactly put it into words now.

my dear friend Watson,
I cried twice.
The first was by your response.
It happens that I am a quick responder and a fairly fast typist.
I will not get involved in my thought process.
In my initial question to you, whom I hold from immensely, in clarity of thought, direction and vision, straightness and resolute, I researched for an hour, or fairly close to it in the books that I have access to. Now, I am not anywhere near an expert in these areas; I am a complete rookie at it, but I could not find in any of the introductions or the steps that I looked at as the purpose of the steps bein' on account of becomin' closer to God, which by the way, would be a tremendous cause and result, and well worth it. So, I was confident in my question - not that I was right, but that I wouldn't be sayin' against a b'feirushe Sandy or Bill - at least in my texts, but I was also confident that you'd be able to explain me the rationale behind your statement.
And in your response with the mashal, I asked again.
I cried again upon a fifteen minute frantic search for the post that I needed to answer, after I switched computers, until I realized what happened then.
Watson (only on phone do I call you by your first name), I hold you in the highest regard and esteem, like I said above. yes, our thinkin' is sometimes different, but I keep communicatin' and wantin' to hear your input.
And most of all, in my last two falls over the last 19 months, who was it that I reached out to with my desperate pleas? Who was it that I called, texted, emailed to set me straight and to hopefully explain to me why I am about to engage in a cliff-jumpin' sport? Do I need to answer that?
Not to you I don't.
You know.

I am sorry and thank you (kotzker selichos)

First of all I obviously owe an apology. I should not have criticised your response to my post. It was uncalled for. I did not mean to cause you any distress.

Lord, help me rather to understand than to be understood.

I think you are asking if getting close to G-d is the purpose of the steps, or if it's the method within the steps with the purpose being to stay sober.

I think the answer is both. I have a G-d shaped hole in my life which I was trying to fill with lust. Lust took me further and further away from G-d. The purpose of the steps is to become closer to G-d which is the way to stay sober.

Lust is my way of being self-sufficient and coping with a life without G-d. Lust is the opposite of being close to G-d.

From the White book page 33:




Becoming close to G-d is the method and the solution. Each step we take towards G-d is a step away from lust, and vice-versa.

The white book hints at this idea:




All 12 steps are geared towards getting closer to G-d, even the ones that don't mention G-d explicitly. First we need to need G-d, then to believe in Him, then to trust Him. Next we clear the wreckage of our past and ask Him to remove the things that block us from Him. We continue to remove wreckage as it comes up. Then we seek to increase our conscious contact with G-d.

The last words of the Big Book highlight the G-d-centricity of the program. G-d is mentioned no fewer than 6 times in this short conclusion. (BTW G-d is mentioned about 150 times in the 160 pages or so of the Big book and about 250 times in the 200 pages or so of the White book. That's about 400 mentions in about 360 pages!)




I hope I'm making sense. It's late here and I can barely think. Bl"n I'll have another look at these last few posts tomorrow.