In response to Fortunate Man.

I've been arguing the case of sex "addiction" since my first day here, and I believe the comparison of sex addiction to other substance abuse is wrong and misleading, because sex is an essential human need, like somebody once quoted the maamar chazal about how when the chachomim davened to hashem to remove the yetzer horo of znus the chickens stopped laying eggs, plus all the concepts in Torah quoted by Fortunate Man. Although, I have come to see where the concept of addiction can be applied here as well, whether it's because of brain chemicals or otherwise.

At the same time, imho and this seems to be the opinion of professionals in the area of addictions, the "Torah Tavlin" idea in the context of battling addictions in general, including sex "addiction", is dead on wrong (a mumchiyus in marriage counseling does not make someone automatically a mumche in all psychological related issues), in fact some claim that in certain cases the Torah becomes the fuel to feed the fire of desire created by the yetzer horo ("nuclear rest button"?). Perhaps this is one way of understanding the concept of "lo zacha naase lo sam hamoves".

In addition, and most importantly, while some find the "Torah Tavlin" idea to help them overcome the yetzer horo of desire, and the creators of this site have chizuk and beis medrash forums for this purpose, THIS IS NOT THE EXPERIENCE OF MANY WHO TRIED THIS PATH AND FAILED TIME AND AGAIN, to claim that because this idea works for some people and is supported in Torah it is therefore the correct path for everybody is wrong and unfair to those who tried it and it didn't work, all this claim does is intensify the feelings of guilt associated with this problem thereby making the problem worse.

Regarding the role a wife plays in recovery, etc., while it is true that a sexual relationship is critical to marriage, and those who suffer from sexual dysfunction in their marriage must resolve this issue in addition to recovery, this does not mean that a wife is a recovery "tool", for a person suffering from a real sex "addiction" I don't know that being with his wife is even the right thing while working on "recovery", I believe there is place for abstention until the person achieves an acceptable balance, otherwise the wife can end up just becoming part of the problem... I guess these decisions are usually discussed with a rov in consultation with a professional in the field, but I assume (and hope) nobody is learning halocho lmaase from an anonymous forum anyway.

well...I guess ... since this was in response to my comment and opinion, I now have a few more titles to add.

since the basis of my opinion was from this site, I will let those people cite the sources.

if it's Christians, romans, protestants, goyishe velt, I guess they will inform us.

Now, regarding that which I said, I would like to clarify something.

In an ordinary marriage, the man and the wife must both contribute somehow to the sexual intimacy. If they do not, it can eventually be grounds for divorce.

However, when we are dealing with two issues: 1. a lust addict, and 2. a wife, who is not sexually active; the solution or the remedy is not to channel one's libido to his wife. His lust addiction is way too energized for her to deal with. It will be counterproductive. She will backlash at him. Is there still a chiyuv of onah? of course! At the same time, the act of mutual acceptance abstaining can have positive effects. It will teach the man to curb his sexual drive, and it can help her deal sexually with her husband on an equal playing field, one where she does not need to be concerned that as soon as she shows any interest at all, he will be all over her.

I will now reread your post, for most of what you said seems to be correct, albeit in an ordinary couple. I was not pleased with your tone or bashing of certain groups, or specific lines of reasoning. I don't care for myself, for I am a haughty person and it will take more than @#$% (assumption about a person) fellow bashing me to bring me down. I do think you should look at the other 219,673 posts on this site (or whatever the number is) and find a duplicate (either in content or in tone) to the one which you wrote.

That being said, debate is healthy and is appreciated.

b'hatzlachah to all marriages

[just to add; I did not see that moish u.k. also wrote the distinction between ordinary marriages and ours.]

moish u.k. wrote:


How can you judge a person's open mindedness based on their knowledge (or lack thereof) in a certain area? For the sake of clarity I would use the term "not learned enough on the topic to know...". (Or maybe I'm not open minded enough to recognize close mindedness. Oh, semantics, semantics...)

Reb Smiley, i like most of what you have written. But i have to stand up for myself and many others who have experienced lust as an addiction.

I ask you not to be dismissive of a subject that has made many people's life, myself included, hell on earth. If that is not your experience then good for you. But just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you cannot be open minded.

Sex is indeed part of our human make up and it serves an important function. But it is not a "need".

The problem is when i misuse that function for another purpose. When i feel "down" or any other difficult feeling then i resort to my "drug". The drug effect being the chemical effect that is being released is my system.

Someone from my SA group, who also used to suffer from cocaine addition, told me that sex is more potent than cocaine.

The point is that there are many different types of addictions. There are substance addictions, and there are behaviour addictions.

moish u.k. wrote:


I don't believe I am being dismissive of anything here, if me using rational arguments to question something I never experienced is offensive to some, I sincerely apologize, and while chazal say "al todin es chavercho ad shetagia limkomo" I don't believe this means they should not ask questions or try to understand what others are going through.
I fully acknowledge and sympathize with those who suffer, even while I can't truly empathize with their form of suffering, and I wish you and everybody here (including myself) to find an end to their suffering very soon.

At the same time comparing sex to cocaine gives the false impression that a desire for sex is a bad thing and causes those who do not suffer from addiction to feel there is something wrong with them and that they are living in denial, thereby giving them a complex, when this may very well not be the case and all they really need is some chizuk.

Bottom line is, blanket statements cannot be made in either direction, and we cannot label something as something that it is not based on the experiences of any single segment of the population. Every individual has to evaluate their situation for what it really is and find the most effective way to deal with it. If calling an out of control behavioral problem a behavioral addiction is what you feel reflects your realty and gets you to where you need to go, then good, go with that. For me the term addiction doesn't reflect the reality of my behavioral problem and puts me off from using the most effective method for me to deal with my problem and I feel there are others like me who are suffering needlessly because of the use of this label.

Once again my arguments were not meant in any way, shape or form to delegitimize anybody's pain and suffering, only to try to add perspective and gain clarity. If anything I said gave that impression please feel free to point that out to me (privately if you wish).

smiley1900 wrote:


thank you for the clarification, but in doing so, you let some words slip, I believe. you wrote that it gives a false impression etc. That is more than an opinion; that is stating a fact.

I also do not understand your logic. While it may be true that a bit of cocaine is harmful, you must admit that being addicted to sex, or too much sex can be harmful as well. has anyone here said that a simple desire for sex is a bad thing? we are talking about lust addicts! Has anyone here insinuated at all that if you have no interest in sex there must be something wrong with you? where would someone get that impression from?

cordnoy wrote:


Which part is non factual, the false or the impression? Either way, apparently you are in agreement that this impression is false and as long as it is not a lust addiction, a desire for sex is not a bad thing, so if nobody disagrees is it still only an opinion? If it gave ME that impression is that a fact or an opinion?

What has been insinuated is that acting out is definitely a result of a lust addiction, this may be true for some (or most) but not for everybody and for those people treating it like a lust addiction is counter productive.

I hope nobody reading all this intellectual blabber is turned off from the appropriate treatment for their situation, otherwise I have failed in my mission of clarification by creating a bigger problem...

I believe a disclaimer is in order: If anybody reading this conversation is struggling with acting out, it doesn't matter how or why, every day that it is not dealt with is a day that could and should have been lived better both from a Torah point of view and lehavdil from a psychological point of view. To those already in the process of recovery, regardless of how or why, never give up and if one method doesn't work for you no matter how hard you try, it doesn't matter how convincing or how many endorsements it has, try something else, and keep trying. To those who are "over the hill", kol hakavod to you, keep it up and never let your guard down.
To everybody here, regardless of where you're holding, you are a source of inspiration to me and I believe others as well (fact or opinion?...), and hashem loves you and is with you wherever you are!

Well put!

KOT!

Doc,
Just so we're clear: First off, I cleared all of my comments first with Rav Gellar. All those remarks were my words that he approved, or his own words that I typed as he spoke. So any criticism is ostensibly being registered against his da'as Torah, which is not a prudent course for a Yid.

Secondly, if you re-read my comments, you'll see that I was directing my statement largely to cordnoy's assertion that "channelling our libidos to our wives is probably a recipe for disaster." Most of what I was saying pertains to married men focussing their sexual drives solely upon their wives, and using Torah, Teshuva, and avodas HaShem to sublimate the yetzer hara to holy activities.
An unmarried bachur (a) needs to focus purely on the latter, and (b) take a wife as soon as he is able, so that he may direct his sexual passions to a kosher kli kabala.

Thirdly, don't read too much into what I didn't say. I choose my words pretty carefully. And for many kinds of people, HaShem has been m'zakeh me to be a highly effective and successful marriage counselor for hundreds of people. Baruch HaShem, He has been m'zakeh me with around a 90% success rate, bli eyin hara. The reason, too, is because I listen very closely to each party, hone in on their problems, get them to reach concurrence as to what the problems are, and then zero in on it, and tell them exactly what they must do -- at times calling my rabbaim for advice as to how to handle it. People come to me precisely because I'm a straight shooter, and they tell me that my reputation as such is what they want.

Lastly, and here's the come to Moses moment: I think it is a mistake to see our shared problem in the same light. Though we might have the same struggle against histaklus asuros, we each have a different nisayon. I don't know about you -- if you are FFB, grew up with or without a TV, girlfriends, lack of tsnius around the house, etc. I grew up totally frei. As such, I did not stumble into this problem, rather I was born into it. I grew up in a totally secular, permissive home with erotic literature and films abounding. I found my first dirty magazine when I was ten, had a pool in the backyard, grew up with lots of women who were friends of my mom, who would come for a swim, and all the voyeurism that that entailed. I was (am) a very attractive man, who had lots of girlfriends, cars, booze, etc. In short, I grew up in a totally menuvaldik environment with open sexuality, nudity, pornography, and licentiousness. I did not pursue this ta'avah for znus. It surrounded me for 25 years. So this is a struggle into which HaShem was megalgel me. The fact that I was able to realize the issur, and formulate an approach to grapple with it is a shevach, in my Rav's words.

The specific question you asked, regarding a wife who refuses to be intimate now with her husband because of his moral failure -- that is a completely different parsha altogether. Moreover, it is a highly individualized matter, and each couple will need to be counseled differently.

In my case, my wife was never moredet. She busted me once, and knew of my struggle, but she also understood that she was a small part of the problem, and a huge part of the solution. That is often the case. She looked at it as her problem too. She grew up in a much less promiscuous and permissive environment, and is far more prude than other women who grew up non-Orthodox. But she also has enough seichel to know that it HaShem gave her a husband who loves her tremendously, but who has this weakness. She has her own shortcomings, which I compensate for, too. Obviously everyone's situation is different and unique. Not every man's wife is going to rebound from the shock and shame, and take it upon herself to be part of the resolution.
But b'etzem, I can tell you categorically that, having spoken to various chashuv Rabbanim on the inyan, the da'as Torah ostensibly holds the metsiis is as I have depicted it. Yes the bechira and inner milchama is ours; yes we are ultimately the responsible party; yes it is our neshama, and our aveira; een hachi nami that this is so. However, there are many maasim and raayos from Chazal which specifically articulate that it is one of the tafkidim of the woman to rescue her husband from sin. She has a major role to play in the yeshua.

I only skimmed this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything anyone else said.

First off, I'd like to point out that if the title, 'Addict' makes you uncomfortable, don't use it. If you are an addict, you will eventually figure that out. The bottom line is that you came here because you have an issue that is taking over your life, and you haven't been able to make progress on your own.

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to touch upon what addiction means to me, and how a basic function of human life can turn into such.

Take a piece of cake.

It's a tasty food, but not a very healthy choice for nutritional value.

Now, most people can have a slice or two on occasion, and it will be enough for them.
In the grand of scheme of things, though unhealthy, it won't be very harmful to these people because they are able to stop eating once they've had enough.

For overeaters, however, they have no off switch. They are obsessed with food and they can't get enough of it. Every minute, they are eagerly awaiting their next feast.

It's that way for lust addicts as well. For most people, they may be able to have a bit of lust. We can argue about whether it can be healthy or not, but for those people, in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.

For me, I know that once I allow myself to entertain one tiny thought of, "wow, cute looking girl," or whatever, my mind does not let go. There is no off switch. One thought leads to the next, which leads to the next. The next thing I know I'm on the computer saying, "5 more minutes." Three hours later, it's one or two in the morning, I know I have to be up at 6:30, and I'm still having a hard time pulling myself away to go to sleep. Then back in addiction mode, I wake up at 5:30 to get on before I need to leave the house. I'm exhausted and not functioning properly, but who cares? I like it. So the whole day I'm anticipating getting back to my garbage and I'm irritable if I'm unable to return it when I was anticipating it.

This is an addiction. A very unhealthy addiction.

So yes, in a normal marriage, physical intimacy is extremely important. It helps the couple bond on many levels. Nobody here is saying anything negative about that.

But in the marriage of an addict who has countless fantasies and images stored in his head, his wife can never measure up. Their intimacy will never be enough for him, though he will usually push his wife to try. She will usually end up feeling very used, and inadequate, and will likely close herself up to him.

Normals vs. Addicts vs. Semi-Addicts, anyone?

How in the world could shalom bayis have anything to do with me staying clean? Doesn't sound like great advice, but I guess anything is possible.

Most of us pretended that our wives were the problem for a long time. Now we want to pretend they are the solution, too? I know, I know. No one said that, but golly gee! We didn't come here to work on shalom bayis! We came to get clean and stay clean, no? Like to stop having sex with ourselves and to stop looking at porn and to stop x...y...and z. To wean ourselves off the notion that we NEED sex. Not to learn that sex is evil like the Christians. We know it can be holy and spiritually healthy. But only when its not being abused and used for our own self-obsessed designs. That is the opposite of all the beautiful da'as torah elucidated above. I suspect the majority of people on this forum manipulated sex with their wives to be all about them and never about a the other person and for sure not about "da'as Torah". We had/have sex with our wives pretty much the same way we had/have sex with ourselves. ME! SEX! ME! SEX! ME! SEX! The only way to get out of that is to wean off of that mentality, and that cannot happen if we think that our wives are in any way responsible. We poisoned them. We gotta take responsibility and clean up the mess.

That being said, maybe the previously mentioned "shared responsibility theory" can help those who are not so addicted or those whose wives didn't mind being used (are there any?). Or maybe its only for the super normal people who struggle with looking a woman once a yoivel? Maybe those blessed with wives who are exceedingly patient and understanding and like feeling guilty for their husband's inability to keep it in his pants (sorry)?

When will all the heavy-weights come set this straight? They're probably enjoying real life at Simchas Beis Hashoeva or something! Sheesh!

Fortunate Man,

You do not mention if the above mentioned daas Torah is familiar with the metziis called "addiction", or what your experience as a professional is with this topic, judging from your post on the topic I would say you haven't encountered this phenomena often if at all, of course I could be totally wrong.
I've been following the topic of addiction (in general, not necessarily in the context of znus) for a while and I've seen that the oilam INCLUDING MANY WHO ARE TRUE REPRESENTATIVES OF DAAS TORAH poshut does not have a full understanding of the condition of addiction and how to treat it, and those who recommend Torah and teshuvah for addiction do so from a lack of knowledge and understanding of the topic, this is compared to a rov giving a psak regarding a medical condition with inaccurate information regarding the condition, such a psak cannot be considered daas Torah because it is based on false information. I am not deep enough into the topic of addiction to explain it very well, but one thing I can tell you for sure is that daas Torah of those who are deep into this topic (I'll try to look up names, one name that comes to mind is rabbi twersky) is that the traditional Torah approaches commonly used for other problems DO NOT WORK FOR ADDICTS, addictions are an entirely different animal and need to be dealt with by professionals and rabbonim IN THAT FIELD.

Regardless of what daas Torah really is, I question the motives for quoting this particular daas Torah on this forum, when a quick glance through this forum reveals countless people who are struggling tremendously and who claim with a kol anos chalusha that as much as they've tried the traditional methods of recovery IT JUST DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM! So naniach that you're right and that daas Torah is that they should focus their sexual drive towards their wives, and use Torah and teshuvah against the yetzer horo, what will you say to those who have been trying this method for years and feel trapped in a never ending cycle of failure? That they are not-prudent as yidden? I fail to see the toeles in this approach.

I also question the assertion that because somebody's upbringing was different they therefore have a ready made teritz for why Torah and teshuvah is not enough for them, was the Torah only given to "normal" people? If you think about this question you will realize that you yourself are admitting that not everything that is "daas Torah" is applicable for all people and in all situations.

I will now defer to those who really know what they're talking about...

I will echo the last three posts and simply add that all readers should not take into account at all what some anonymous poster posts claiming is the unequivocal daas torah.
uch and vei!
especially in our days when the Gedolim ostensibly even say or write something, it is not, many times, what they actually said or meant, kal shekein in this instance.

I will also add without mentioning names or any insinuations that gayvah does not go over so well on this site.

Having a wife who is into the physical part of the relationship, whether as part of her job or simply because she enjoys it, is great. That would probably help in recovery - although I see how it could confound things as well - but that's only when it is coming entirely from her. No?

Fortunate Man wrote:


Libido is not the problem. You wife wants you to have a healthy libido. She does not want you to believe that it would be terrible if you don't have whatever your little heart desires, which is what underlies "addiction."




What you just wrote speaks volumes. The Torah is supposed to be the antidote. So why does mussar work better for you? Because the Torah is only an antidote when you actually believe that today's gemara is the best thing that you could ever have, both in this life and the next. That my last five minutes of learning are better than all the sex and all the money.

When this is not entirely clear you reach for the stick, the mussar, the idea that if I desire physicality I do not deserve to live, a fragile method of self-motivation.

The key element you need to make the transition from the stick to the carrot is to accept that you don't see the value, that you could be dirt and still get up every day. Then you can begin to see the value.