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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

TOPIC: need guidance 2965 Views

need guidance 18 Sep 2013 05:28 #219534

New to this site. Not sure where to start. I mast... during different periods. Sometimes I can go for two weeks without mast.. Or looking at por... Other times I do it two three yes a night. Is that addicted it just bad habit? Either way where to from here?

Re: need guidance 18 Sep 2013 07:44 #219545

  • reallygettingthere
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Hello RTH,


I wouldn't be too quick to label someones behavior and addiction (besides the fact that I have no credentials to make that assessment).

But, if you are doing something that you know is wrong and you feel like you cant control yourself it might be addicted.

My name is Eli. I don't know if I'm an addict. Maybe yeah, maybe no.

But...

The label is not so important. The question is: Am I committed to stopping. If I am, then what am going to do about it?

For starters stop. Get filters, get rid of your iPhone etc. get rid of the easy access to falling.

Rabbeinu Yonah says that someone who in entrenched in sin needs to stop first and feel bad later.

Don't be a stranger open up a bit. Tell us about yourself.

Are you a scotch or a bourbon guy.
Roy in the SA White Book noted that we frequently prayed and it did not work...because the best we could muster was begging G-d to "Please take it away, so I will not have to give it up!

No amount of sobriety can cure the insanity -ChaimCharlie

The emmes hurts but fake chizzuk will hurt more -Bards

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Re: need guidance 18 Sep 2013 08:42 #219548

  • inastruggle
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Welcome,

Dov's definition of an addict is if lust is causing your life to spiral out of control.But as reallygettingthere said, the ikkur is the commitment to stop.

The first step is probably to read the handbook (most of it is written in the "GYE program" tab at the top of the page.

Then you have to figure out a plan how to stop, filters, gedarim, maybe SA etc.

Keep posting on your thoughts.

Hatzlacha!

Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 05:59 #219588

  • sib101854
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Take it from someone who also masturbated more than once a night , watched and read porn incessantly-and then stopped periodically. It can start as a habit and descend to addiction if it preoccupies every spare minute and you start think about it during davening, seder, etc. Unless you confront yourself and your issues and talk about then, the issue won't go away.

Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 10:12 #219598

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and, in answer to your last question (where to?); it actually depends. If you are committed to stop (for you have felt the rock bottom, like I have....I actually used to call it "hell," but I don't want to confuse that with gehinnom, wrong or right, aveirah, and such, for that is not what will pull you out from this filth), then the only way is up (and press one floor at a time, for we do not focus on the distant future; we focus on this moment in front of us); but, if you have not made that commitment yet, for whatever reason, then we cannot provide the answers for you....the yetzer hara and his clan will provide plenty.

Hope to see ya' around here.

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Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 12:09 #219603

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Are you an addict? I don't know. I don't really buy into that whole sexual addiction, porn addiction line. When I think of an addiction, I am thinking of drugs or alcohol, where there is a physical addiction. Researchers will tell you that the chemical releases that take place in the brain when one indulges in that type of eroticism is like a drug-induced chemical reaction. And they will compare it to a gambling addiction. So seen in that light, then maybe yes there is an addiction.

But the metzius is, the Torah states: "Barasi Yetzer HaRa, ubarasi Torah tavlin." We have a Yetzer Hara for this kind of stimulation, and it really excites us. And that is the big struggle that we have. Making a tikkun in that middah of being a baal taavah is the reason we were misgalgel -- ken nirah li, b'anivus daati. ANd we've got the Torah as a tavlin, a spice, for helping us to deal with that taavah. If we are married, then that means channeling our libido into our wives, and working with them to with the tavlin of Torah.

Part of our avodah, whether for married men or unmarried bachurim, is to immerse our minds and eyes in the study of Torah.

Personally, I find that mussar like, the Kav HaYashar, or VeHar Eineinu, helps me more than stam halacha or shtaiging over a Gemara, or learning some insightful peirush on the Tanach.

THe point is: that Tavlin of Torah in that context helps break the Yetzer Hara for znus, and to dismantle the chemical reactions that occur in the brain due to our erotic indulgences. I'm not saying that the Kav HaYashar is the only thing that works. It works for me. Finding some facet of Torah to plug your mind into, though, is the tavlin that will break this taavah.

Avraham

Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 17:33 #219610

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channeling our libido into our wives is probably a recipe for disaster....something that took me a while to learn from this site, and an opinion that I have mistakenly believed all my marriage
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Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 20:30 #219623

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"channeling our libido into our wives is probably a recipe for disaster....something that took me a while to learn from this site, and an opinion that I have mistakenly believed all my marriage"

If you and your Eshes Chayil are not open about your libido, I would suggest that the lack of emotional communication with our wives is a major factor in why so many of us have stories of a lack of physical intimacy with our wives Bchedrei Chadorim and have sought substitutes elsewhere.

Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 20:35 #219624

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"Are you an addict? I don't know. I don't really buy into that whole sexual addiction, porn addiction line. When I think of an addiction, I am thinking of drugs or alcohol, where there is a physical addiction. Researchers will tell you that the chemical releases that take place in the brain when one indulges in that type of eroticism is like a drug-induced chemical reaction. And they will compare it to a gambling addiction. So seen in that light, then maybe yes there is an addiction. "

If thinking about porn or masturbation becomes as necessary as a fix , a drink or gambling for other addicts, you are an addict. Learning and Sifrei Musar are the best way to break the addiction, but until and unless one recognizes the addiction and deals it with the help of Pilpul Chaverim, such as this sight, you cannot overcome the addiction by yourself.

Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 20:52 #219625

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I didn't understand either of the last two posts

you said before, one should channel his libido to his wife; now you are talking about conversations with wife.

the second one I don't chap at all.

thanks and sorry
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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Re: need guidance 22 Sep 2013 20:54 #219626

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this has been discussed so much that I don't really want to get into it again, but I do feel I need to point out that no amount of learning or mussar ever helped me break my addiction, and clearly it didn't help any member of this site or they wouldn't need to be here at all. Not that learning and mussar aren't incredibly valuable, but clearly we need more to break this addiction. Given the number of people here in full time learning or who were in full time learning for a long time, it's very difficult to argue otherwise.

I think the point is that this is not just a yetzer hora, this is an illness. When you're ill you need to go and see the right kind of doctor to help you. Someone with OCD or depression must learn and hear mussar, but they need more than that as well. Looking at this problem like any other aveiroh is to deny ourselves an incredible remedy to the illness, which at the end of the day is one that Hashem wants us to cure.

So yes, it's a hard thing to accept. It's uncomfortable to think of ourselves as ill, and that's why we go to such lengths to explain it in other ways. But you've got to ask yourself, what really works? Should I carry on believing what I've always believed and acting like I've always acted and naively assume that the problem will magically go away by itself, or should I embrace a different approach, one that has a proven track record of success? That's the choice we all face when joining GYE.

May Hashem guide us down the right path.
Last Edit: 22 Sep 2013 21:05 by Watson.

Re: need guidance 23 Sep 2013 01:59 #219643

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In response to a comment by cordnoy, regarding the unacceptablity of expecting one's wife to be a part of the solution....
That's completely false. I'm a professional marriage counselor with 13 years in the business. A spousal relationship requires a strong passionate sexual relationship. As my Rebbetzin has stated many times, "It is the cement which holds a marriage together."

A strong passionate intimate life is built upon a history of emotional bonding, shared struggles, sacrificing for the other, putting the other's needs first, living to make the other person happy.

Both parties to the marriage have valid, human, biological, libidinous needs, and it is part of the spousal obligation that each has to the other to nurture the relationship through any permitted means possible. In some cases, that means being quiet and listening to the other person speak; in some cases it means stopping one's own life and putting the spouse's needs first; in some cases, it means being loving, tender, and affectionate. One thing is for certain though: if one of the parties refuses to participate in, develop, and enhance the sexual side of marriage, that marriage is ostensibly over, and the suffering party has grounds for divorce. Al pi halacha, the woman would be considered a moredet, and would lose her kesuba. A man who refuses his wife is breaking his obligations under the terms of the kesuba sh'ar, ksus, and onah, and the Beis Din could force him to give her a get
If anyone thinks they are going to break this ta'avah through celibacy, or by NOT seeking to enhance the intensity of the sexual union with one's wife, you are SORELY mistaken. The adulterous aspect of immodest gazing at erotic imagery other than one's wife is that this issur puts another female sexual object in place of one's ezer kenegdo. Self-stimulation through action or sight channels a kosher drive into an unkosher kli. Multiple seforim kadoshim specify that gawking over other women is a type of ni'uf. The Kav HaYashar says b'feirush that, by blasting one's seed into oblivion, one is literally impregnating the ezer kenegdo of Satan -- lamed yud lamed yud tav. And derech agav, one part of the tikkun and teshuva for that catastrohic aveira is saying the entire Krias Shema al HaMita. That, along with the entire teshuva process of vidui, charata, azivas hacheit, kabbalah al ha'atid, ameilus b'Torah, sweating over the mitzvos (in both thought and deed).

My Rav, Shmuel Gellar, the Rosh Yeshiva of Ohr Yaakov in Zichron Yaakov, has told me explicitly much of the hashkafa that I have articulated above.

Many of the men who post on this website are FFB. And it needs to be said aloud, and for all present company to hear: there has been an infiltration into the American frum Jewish psyche that sexuality is unseemly, needs to be suppressed as much as possible, that the wives are not responsible for contributing to the relationship of intimacy, etc. All of that garbage is pure goyish. It has infiltrated from the Christians, in part as a response to the public sexualization and degradation of conjugal intimacy.

We have the Torah which tells us how we must act in an intimate setting with tsnius, affection, flirtation (being m'fayes our spouses), caring for the other person's needs, obeying the laws of niddah, etc. Ribono shel Olam, ONE SIXTH of the Talmud is called Seder Nashim. Whoever denies that a wife has an important role in the gadlus ha'adam through a sanctified marriage is pashut not a ben Torah. That's the entire concept of pas basalo. Whoever does not understand that a wife is, in one aspect, a kosher kli for that drive does not understand the first thing about marriage and achieving shleimus.

I'm not saying she's an object. Don't be an idiot and try to put words in my mouth. As Rav Moshe Aharon Stern, ZTsal said, a man has the Triple A obligations to his wife of: Attention, Appreciation, and Affection. The obligations begin with the man. We have obligations to provide: food/shelter/sustenance, clothing, and marital affection. The primary obligation is on the man to be the giver. And the shoresh of give -- yahiv -- is hei vet, HAV, as in AHAVA. The essence of love is giving. That essential giving enhances the love relationship that we owe to our wives. As we give our love, attention, appreciation, and affection, this engenders a spirit of intimacy and connection.

But they are not patur from contributing to that sense of marital bliss, harmony, and intimacy. If anyone thinks otherwise, they have been listening to the Christian priests, and not the rabbaim. Because that is absolutely not da'as Torah.

Circling back to the beginning, with all that I have said up till now: the initial spark and motivation for the connection comes from the man, who has the primary obligation to be a lover and giver to his wife. That drive ignites the spark that illuminates the bonds of love between husband and wife. In order to keep that flame burning, to harness her husband's passions, a wife has the obligation to be mekabel his energy, and to strengthen and nurture that connection.

Breaking free of the schmutz is essential for channelling all of our energies towards our wives. But they are not disinterested third parties. Fahr kehrt, they are the ikeret habayis -- they are the essence of the domicile. It may be a long slog for us to regain their trust and love; that's true. But they are not outside the circle of intimacy. On the contrary, they COMPLETE the circle of intimacy. RaV Gellar said, "They are the only intimacy permitted to you. Of course they have to fulfill you, and you them. Once upon a time, we were allowed to have more than one. Now we are only allowed to have intimacy with one -- the wife. It is a very hard halacha. But she is the only one permitted to you. The only other option you have is to be completely married to Torah, like Ben Azai. But none of us is kulo Torah. What is normal is to give opver all of our taavos to our wives. To no one else but her. ANy alter bachur is sexually messed up. It's issurei gehinnom to be an unmarried alter bachur. You have no heiter to do anything except with a frum Jewish wife, al pi Torah and kedusha. A wife has to understand that her husband has needs. A wife has a role in helping him to deal with his ta'avos. She must realize how strong the taavos are out there. It's no heiter for the man to act out with zonos, or the erotic images. It's not acceptable behavior. But part of his development in becoming a ben Torah is her being more aggressively involved in his sexual needs, in making herself more desirable to him, and more desirous of him. It might take a lot of counseling for him to overcome his ta'avos. It doesn't happen over night, and it is a big avodah. But it's critical for saving the marriage and saving neshamas."
Last Edit: 23 Sep 2013 02:02 by Fortunate Man. Reason: in response to a comment by cordnoy

Re: need guidance 23 Sep 2013 02:21 #219646

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I agree very much with Fortunate Man's perspective here.

The men must free oneself from the shmutz-no question about it

but the unhealthy negative/ fearful attitude many FFB's have towards healthy sexuality is very very damaging to marriage & to life in general.

A wife cannot & should not tolerate the shmutz-her husband's eyes & heart should be just for her & her only

but if & when he does everything humanly possible to achieve this, she is nota passive outsider. She fulfills both herself, her husband, & (believe it or not) God's will to help him & aid him & work together to enhance this aspect of marriage.

& to quote Fortunate Man "If anyone thinks they are going to break this ta'avah through celibacy, or by NOT seeking to enhance the intensity of the sexual union with one's wife, you are SORELY mistaken"

the mehalech of somehow trying to ignore this fact by channeling everything into other areas such as just learning or prayer or bitul etc-has led to disaster in many cases
Last Edit: 23 Sep 2013 02:28 by yechidah.

Re: need guidance 23 Sep 2013 15:01 #219673

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Fortunate man, are you saying that it's impossible for a bochur to break their addiction?

In any case I think you're talking off topic. What does a married man do if his wife refuses to have sex with him for whatever reason? The only advice I understood from what you said is too rash at best.

On a separate note, you make me nervous when you say "I'm a professional marriage counselor with 13 years in the business." It makes it sound like you know everything already. The problem is that with all that knowledge you still ended up on GYE admitting you have a problem. I believe this is the first time I've seen the word 'idiot' on this forum and it bothers me greatly. Please try to accept the important SA principle that our best thinking got us into this mess in the first place and be more receptive to other perspectives and try to understand what helps other people in this addiction.

Re: need guidance 23 Sep 2013 19:11 #219686

  • moish u.k.
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Fortunate Man, you say you are a marriage counsolor, and yet you are not open minded enough to accept that for many people lust is an addiction. I see that as a contradiction. It is people like you who give good people in the helping proffesions a bad name.

You seem to be a Talmid chochom, and what you say is all true... for normal people. i.e. for people who do not have this illness called addiction.

One has to know where to apply the halocho. Just as a diabetic is allowed to do certain things on Shabbos, which for other people would be considered chilul shabbos.

A Rabbi who knows nothing about dibetes would be expected to be honest enough to admit that, and either researh the subject or refer to another Rov who has.

And finally, how can you give advice on a subject that you yourself are struggling with?
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