skeptical wrote:


sorry to tell you (i don't know you but i) CANNOT do it! when i thought i can - i fell again & again. when i realize i'm powerless - I got to 83 days! & then i thought once again may be i can? & the fall was hard!

in Hebrew it goes good: אל תהפוך נפילה למפולת - don't make a "fall" (נפילה) to a "collapse" (מפולת)

As posted by צדיק גמור




I am not going to argue it, because though I personally don't understand what it is you're saying, I'm glad you found what works for you.

Hatzlacha!

you are right eli

their is many tools
dont use a tool made for wood, for stone

every person is different

Maybe to clarify be"H a little 'issue' that brings confusion regarding what Tzadik Gomur referred to. He mentioned the taboo-idea that makes no sense to any non-addict and goes something like this: "Only when I truly give up completely, can I win." It is an idea that countless recovering alcoholics, sexaholics, chronic gamblers, and heroin addicts have discovered works for them, and it is the experience first shared clearly in the book and program called "AA". And it is not for everybody.

But the drunks did not make it up. It's a path toward success in Derech Eretz that is kodmah laTorah, and many addicts have found they simply do not succeed in Torah (or any way of life) unless they have it, first.

In fact, Rav Dessler describes it perfectly when he explains why Dovid hamelech could afford to go to battle and kill his enemies with his very hands and weapons - yet Assa and Chizkiyahu could not. Assa discovered he would lose his proper relationship with his G-d if he had any more active a role in his success than davening. And Chizkiyahu couldn't even do that! Even davening for victory would have subtly convinced him at a gut level that he made the victory...and that would ruin his relationship with Hashem and his avodah would fail. So Chizkiyahu reasoned that since he was far weaker in emunah than Dovid hamelech and Assa, he decided he had to go to sleep. Surrender from the fighting and leaving it to Hasehem was the only way for him, because he was lower. And Hashem took care of him just as well as He took care of the two earlier and greater kings: Sancheriv was vanquished. 'We' won!

Those men were not addicts. But al derech avodah the idea is an exact parallel to recovery - the lower one is, the sicker one is, the less of a part they can play in their victory if they want to win. Addicts let go of the entire fight. When we struggle with our drug, we are really just trying to control it...to be like everyone else who can be nichshal 'a little'. But whenever we are 'nichshal a bit, we end up in misery and our lives become unacceptably messy. So we discover that we need to dump the struggle to control it, and give the whole mess to Hashem.

This is surrender. Many well-meaning people here get into the halocha/hashkofah/philosophy - but that's all irrelevant and misleading. Surrender is just a mature, humble acceptance by an individual that he or she is simply disqualified from doing the 'normal thing' and fighting for kedusha as other people do. He sees that fighting and 'working on it' was not working. Instead, it was the very thing that got him into the mess he finds himself in today! Bechirah as he understands it is not working. He tried the rebbi, he tried the shrink, he tried Reishis Chochma, Tikun Klali, mikvah and crying till he fainted - whatever - and it failed him. So? Is the problem in the Torah, the shrink, the tehillim Rebbi Nachman picked wrong? No way. The problem - whatever it is - is in the addict.

Einstein said that judging a fish's greatness by how well it can climb a tree is a very unfortunate mistake. So is expecting to fight his problem and win, for the addict. Saying the magic frum words, "well, of course, I mean b'ezras hashem!" means nothing at all. He is fighting, period, and the ego gets into it - the stakes are high, and the shame moves him to BEAT it and WIN -- for kedushas haBris and for Klal Yisroel, of course... ...and he is back on the holy Teshuvah roller-coaster that we all know so well, again. (I went Coach after the first few years in First class... )

This is not a matter of philosophy, hashkofah, or anything else - it is a fact learned by an individual addicts bitter experience. No religion, 12step book or group has permission to 'teach' anyone this. I can't say, "you really need this" to anyone! And even if I could - and even if Hashem could, it'd be a waste of time! The only thing that really matters is what you learn and come to know about yourself - and that only comes from experience. And Goy or Jew it is all the same. OK, now for the fun part:

'Giving up the struggle' is not anything like giving in to the desire. I think that ch'shash is what freaks frum guys like us out when we heard it the first time. It is a surrender to Hashem, not to lust. And it does not mean manipulating Hashem into saving us with the 'koach hatfilloh'. There is ultimately no shochad here - Leiv nishbar v'nidkeh Elokim lo sivzeh. Period. For an addict that means simply: he is either broken and machniya himself to the truth of his powerlessness and failure, or He will not get Hashem's help and will fail.

This is not our regular 'party line'! Of course it isn't. For example, how can a Rabbi get up at the podium and talk of the full extent of his personal temper, sex, and honesty failures in detail? Isn't he supposed to inspire by good example? No Rebbi does that - none. Even thoe few who do share their failures and humbly admit their shortcomings do so in parcels. They take care not to overdo it, lest they make a 'chillul Hashem'. AND THEY ARE 100% RIGHT! The typical pulpit Rabbi is not speaking to a kehilla of addicts! Most people (even men!) who are nichshal in these things are not addicts, at all. If the Rabbi would lower the bar, he would be doing a grave disservice to the majority of normal strugglers. Yes, a little admission of humanity is powerful - but he needs to go easy on that. Maintain the perception of near-perfection for his kehila's own good. And maybe he really is nearly perfect! So?

Do you get my point, here? Have I spelled 'kehilah' in 3 or more ways? OK...so where were we?

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

Another subtle point so beautifully brought out.

So when is the book coming out?

Dov that was a home run big time!

I just loved it, even though you have written this and similar stuff all around the
forum, this one was not too long and very straight to the point.

I have been doing this lately (maybe not enough as my ego keeps popping it's head up.annoying!). I don't consider myself an addict just an extremely heavy luster and the results have been much better. Not necessarily by the "amount" of clean days, but by the understanding that not all is in my hands and I can't fight it. And when I do fall I am not angry at myself for failing my ego and not succeeding (by the way it is helping have more and longer "clean days" but that isn't the point).
I think when we think we are in control and then we fall it really hurts and leads to depression, dejection and guilt which do not help at all. But when we hand the battles over we don't get that feeling because we didn't start with it as a personal fight which was lost and we don't get the feeling that we are useless etc.


Yitzchok

extending my thaphsic method till next thursday

How about till tonight, then renew it first thing in the morning? I thought it says "chadoshim lab'korim"? Last time I checked, tomorrow doesn't exist.

moish u.k. wrote:


Check out the "dov quotes" link in my signature. Anyway, dov doesn't write books, only megillahs .

Dov wrote:

so does this mean that the whole difference in admitting powerlessness is just continuing the same fight but saying that theres no "natural" way to do it and you have to rely on hashem?

To say that you "Can not" do it and that you're clean because you gave up the struggle to Hashem is misleading.

The 12-Steps is not all about giving away the issue. It's a method to work on your issue by bringing an awareness of Hashem into your life, asking Him for assistance so that you shouldn't be tested while in turn committing yourself to better your relationship with Him, letting go of past hurts and improving hurt relationships (which very likely are the root cause of the issue).

People who don't do the other steps and just say that they're giving their battles to Hashem to fight for them will most likely fall. In short, you need to work on it.

So don't say you're not doing it. You are doing it with Hashem's help.

gibbor120 wrote:


Wow thats a great resource.

Looking for a chavruseh. Any offers?

ok dov i will

was clean for 7 days then a fall again after doing my thaphsic method detraction

DOV,
In our last chat you told me something about a sponsor.... what is this all about?

I am thinking about my next step in this war