Ouch

From Today's Daily Dose of Dov:

Someone posted:

Deep Breathe.... Here we go:

I am torn. Torn to pieces. Shreds. Threads. What is there to do? Another spiral downward. Another dip in the sea of death. Yet another cry from my knees. I don't know what to do anymore. I honestly feel hopeless. Helpless. Almost on the brink of just wanting to give up this battle and just let life takes me where it wants.

I tell myself I am not strong enough. I don't have the will or mind power. And I truly don't. When was the last time this really affected me? When was the last time I cried over this? Life is a cycle. If I want to change myself I need to find the biggest hammer in the world and smash this cycle to bits and pieces. After doing well for a while, I feel like I've fallen all the way back to worse than pre-GYE.

I don't really ever ask for help so this calling out to you guys is the truth.

Thank you all.

Dov Responds:

There is a story I heard about R' Yisroel Salanter, though others have quoted it about someone else:

A yiddle was told he'd be davening for the amud at Reb Yisroel's shul that Yomin Noro'im, and said: "Rebbi, this is ridiculous! I am not a person to do this: I don't sing well enough, I don't have enough real kavonoh, and I have aveiros, besides!"

Reb Yisroel answered (and I am starting to cry now while typing this): "What, do you think we really need someone up there who thinks that he can sing well enough, has good kavonoh and has no aveiros!?"

To me, that story is like a bolt of thunder and lightning. The steps are not really for the guy who wants to improve his life, the guy who feels he needs to be stronger, nor for the guy who thinks that if he just tries these eitzos, he'll make it! They are for the guy who has no hope whatsoever - even with the steps! It's impossible! There is no way he can make it! But he has no way out (cuz suicide is not what he wants to do, for whatever reason)!

B"H! For him there is an accepting and loving Hashem waiting, and the steps helped many people find that open hand of Hashem and get the gift of a new life, if they admit the truth about themselves see there is no way out, and begin to give themselves over to the care of Hashem.

It's indeed not for the guy who thinks he can make it - it's for the guy who sees that he can't.

You are a very lucky person. Let go of yourself and get the help you need and trust in the impossible. Gevalt, it isn't easy. But in the end, what choice do we have?

MosheF wrote on 30 Jun 2010 17:31:


Moshe, I almost cried when I read this.  Whether we admit to or not, I (and its probably safe to say we all) know this feeling unfortunately too well.  B"H we have taken the steps to . . . (I'll leave the blanks for Dov) (I was going to say "taken the steps to turn to Hashem with the recognition that He is the only one who can guide us out of this mess").  What's scary is that there are so many other frum people out there who feel this same way but have no clue about this site, the program or are too embarassed to admit it even if they do.
I guess that notwithstanding the unmanageability of it all we should consider ourselves lucky at this point.

Ever heard of the fat guy, skinny guy phenomenon.

Fat guy wakes up one morning, decides to go on a diet, he is all motivated, gets right on the treadmill, runs for an hour, wow, a full hour!!  He has a healthy whole-wheat, fat free breakfast, and starves the rest of the day.  Two days later he gets on the scale, lost two pounds.  An even  more motivated person gets back on the treadmill, eats vegetables and vitamins for a week and loses another five pounds, amazing.    The guy dreams about the day where he loses 100 pounds, imagines himself playing baseball again and winning the marathon. That day is not too far off, he thinks, it’s actually happening.  Then one day he wakes up and opens the fridge, starts with a yogurt, then a ice cream, forgets about the treadmill and within a week he gained seven pound back. 

What happened to his motivation, to his dreams, to his success?  Was he not real?  Was he not legitimate?  The answer is that the motivation inside of him was the skinny guy talking, the skinny guy inside of him that wants to be productive and  healthy.  The skinny guy was going to win the marathon and he was serious. 

But after a few days, the fat guy inside of him woke up, the fat guy is a different person inside of him, the fat guy was never motivated, he was just asleep but when he woke up he wanted nothing the skinny guy wants and he began fighting.  The fat guy wants to lay on the couch all day, popcorn and soda in hand and watch tv. 

Bottom line is, the fat guy and the skinny guy are two entities inside of one person, when the fat guy is asleep, the skinny guy is all motivated and convinced he will succeed, but once the fat guy wakes up, fat guy and skinny guy get into a head on head battle and the skinny guy loses every time.

Inside of me is a normal person who wants to be a good father a good husband and a even better Jew.  The normal guy inside of me enjoys his work and is genuinely motivated to face everyday challenges and work with those challenges and stay sober.  The problem is that little addict inside me, when the addict wakes up, the addict wants to act out, watch porn, obsess over women and then act out more.  When the addict is alive, the normal guy is defeated in seconds he stands no chance winning  the addict. 

When the addict is done acting out, he usually goes to sleep for a period of time, and that’s when the normal guy gets up and thinks to himself “ how stupid was that”, normal guy is genuinely motivated again and is truly determined to be sober from now, is determined not to let the fall bring him further down, is determined to get back to work and face the problems, is determined to be strong again.

Every time I’m done acting out, that determination comes back to me and it feels so real, so authentic.  And the truth is, it is real and it is authentic, the dreams that I have of staying sober today, or a whole week are real dreams, it looks so attainable.  But the problem is of course: the motivational guy is only the normal guy talking.  The addict is asleep because I just acted out.  Then the addict wakes up again,  sometimes after a few minutes, sometimes after an hour and sometimes after a week, the addict wakes up again and when that happens, all the normal guys promises, dreams and determination are crushed, normal guy is defeated again and motivation disappears and of course I act out again.

That is me!  The normal guy and the addict guy.  It’s the only way I can explain driving to work feeling good, really really good, feeling ready to face the day, as though today I can conquer the world and close a few deals.  But 10 minutes later, 10 minutes!! Not two days, not a week, but 10 minutes later I’m surfing the web and acting out.    The guy in the car 10 minutes earlier promising to be good is just not the same guy that all of sudden woke up and said, hey let’s act out.  And when I’m done acting out, the normal guy wakes up and feels motivated again and says “I can do it” I really feel that I can do it. 

And I fall for the normal guy every single time forgetting again and again that the dormant addict is going to wake up soon and it’s over.  My motivation means nothing and is not going to help when the addict wakes up.  I wish I could remember that and feel powerless even when only the normal guy is awake.

Hey Moshe,

I too lamost cried when I read about your unmanagability.

Here is what I have to say about your explanation of your disease. Youre not a schizophrenic. You dont have split personalities. Its the same person and the same mind when you act out and when you dont. The reason you feal so determined right after you act out is becasue thats the only time when you really feel the pain of this addiction. We need to work together to beat this thing. I cannot do it alone. You cannot do it alone. Together we can do it. This is why I think we should have more than one call per week. Not so that we can move faster in the steps, but we will get to know each other more on a personal level and be able to understand and help each other through the tough times. Lets all get out of the isolation because thats what got us here in the first place (i.e acting out on the computer).

Be well Moshe and dont worry. If you stick with it and keep going, you always have a chance for success. Its when we give up that Hashem wont help us.


Have a Good Shabbos!

-Yiddle

This afternoon, I met a client who happened to be a young, hot,  gorgeous, drop dead women, dressed to kill(me).  At the meeting, I noticed her beauty but was able to concentrate on the work and look at her as a human, not as an object.  The problem began and it alwasy is after I left, all sorts of fantasies and could have, should have scenarios are passing my mind and I fantasize about meeting a client and haveing sex with them etc.

Anyway, just bringing my secret fantasy into the open, see if it works to remove it's strengty.

Moshe first off congrats for keeping focus during the meeting. Obviously that's were the real nisayon was with a live body right in front of you. With respect to the aftershocks. Why don't you try speaking with Hashem saying that you are powerless over these thoughts and asking Him to help you overcome them.

You know what the problem is, i don't want to let go.  it's hard to let go of such stimulating fantasy.  I want to keep dreaming.

MosheF wrote on 05 Jul 2010 21:55:


Please see the daily dose of dov in yesterday's chizuk e-mail (#812) re-not wanting to enough.

Moshe,

Your story is heart breaking and all too familiar.  From my experience, the 2 states of being ("normal" vs. "addict") are not on the same planet.  They don't (can't) co-exist, and the addict state is MUCH STRONGER.  When you're in that state, it's too late.  There is nothing else - it's almost impossible to bring up the normal guy and take him seriously at that point.  He's like an annoying pest, whispering in the wind.  But when you're done acting out, he re-emerges, and all of a sudden he sounds so sensible.  How could you believe anything else?  How could you ever contemplate being so stupid every again?  So what's the solution, you ask. 

I believe there's only one.  The facts are what they are and don't change for an addict in recovery.  The addiction is STILL much stronger and, as far as I know, always will be.  The only way out is never to let him in the drivers seat.  Keep the normal guy in charge, as much as it may hurt.  And it does hurt...and you may wonder why you should put up with the pain when the balm is so readily available.  Why live in a state of pain, lack of fulfillment, boredom, lethargy, irritation, etc. etc.  It's so easy to make it all go away!!  The only answer I've found is when you realize that in the long run (and medium run too), the pain of acting out is MUCH WORSE.  It's what they call hitting rock bottom, and what I believe Guard means when he says not wanting enough.  Until you're convinced, with absolute certainty, that they pain of acting out is worse than the pain of living, that it will kill you and ruin your life, it's hard to let the normal guy stay in charge.

This all sounds pretty depressing.  I'm essentially saying that you have to pick the lesser of two evils - the choice is between pain on one hand, and more pain on the other.  Pretty bleak.  BUT...and this part has to be take on faith for now...there is a third way.  There is a way of fulfillment.  Happiness.  Productivity.  Healthy relationships.  Kedusha V'taharah.  It just takes time to get there.  For me, most of the time the only defense I have is the knowledge that acting out is worse than the pain I'm experiencing now.  But every once in a while I get a taste of why it's all worthwhile.  What REAL living is all about.  And it's a lot sweeter than lust, Moshe.  It's positive and eternal, not fleeting and damaging.  It's why we're here.

I don't know what to say, today I am struggeling with fantasies and those fantasies look like the single most important thing in my life.  It seems that I just NEED that girl i'm dreaming about.

You don't mean the girl whose really hot but has an STD because she's been around the block so many times.  I'll pass on her.

Today was so hard, I drove by this woman and stopped my car acting as if i was on my cell phone for five minutes so I could take a good look.  It's crazy how I feel so obsessed with it, it feels so important to me, it feels like if I don't get this woman and see her naked I will go crazy, I NEEED IT SO BADLY.  that was this afternoon, b'h by now it has passed.

Yukes i feel so stupid wrting all this.

"I feel so stupid writing this"
Moshe if I may suggest writing about it is the smartest thing you did today. By writing about it you 1) allowed yourself to take an objective view of how powerless you are over lust which will greater enable you to turn over your lust to Hashem because it is obvious that you can't do it alone 2) it will memorialize the feelings you get when you pursue this route, next time you get these urges look back and see how you will feel in the end. It may assist you in cutting off the lust at the pass when you realize that if you pursue it you will only end up with a feeling of yuckiness that you hate 3) it is a cry to the other members of the group for assistance; 4) its a recognition of remorsefulness and a step in the direction of teshuva.  Keep on posting. Keep on fighting. You're on the way up and were all together in this battle.

WOW. I am new to this site, and certainly to the group. But it is clear to me that I am in a very special place.

Bro - Moshe - (I assume that's your real name), It seems to me that we (every single one of us) really has the same story, just with different "numbers", "examples", etc. I can relate so much to everything you have said. The details of my story may be different than yours, but it is almost as if those details are irrelevant. There are times when it gets so difficult to hold back for me, that my nights start to go sleepless. My life begins to fall apart and the only option I can see is to give in.

MosheF wrote on 08 Jul 2010 22:54:


Thank you so much for sharing.

Unfortunately this monster is stronger than me. It is stronger than you. It is not however, stronger than both of us. We will fight together. We will win together. I am always here for you.

I will say tehillim. Now.

I am not sure what to post, I have come to realize that the days I post on this thread, I feel more connected and don't have that strong desire to act out.  Past two days I started posting on my thread and other threadss but backed out in the middle.  Not sure why, but I have this fear or posting, calling, emailing etc.

Anyway, the result was that I acted out three times yesterday over a crazy obsession.  Funny that acting out doesn't even help the obsession but I do it anyhow.  Another thought, I feel that I don't have time to spend an hour every day on GYE and other recovery work, I am very busy these days, but then in the middle of a very busy day as custtomers are waiting for me to service their accounts, i find three hours to search for images on the computer, that is sad.