Now if I only could do that when my wife does something that gets on my nerves.

ur-a-jew wrote on 30 Aug 2010 03:56:
Wow, do I know exactly what you mean about the psukei d'zimrah thing...sometimes it's a good thing guns are muzktzeh.

Uh-oh....guess i got more writing to do.....

Oh, congrats on the writing thing!

Ok here's an attempt at the fourth step.  Someone I know from over 20 years ago moves into town.  He became more modern from when I knew him and when I meet his wife she's the same, comes from a very frum family and she doesn't cover her hair, open v-neck sweater.  Very nice guy and we talk on the bus whenever we see each other.  I'm sitting on the bus the other day and he walks on with this blond-haired woman and their talking and laughing in the aisle kinda really loud.  I say hello to him but I'm wondering to myself who is the girl he's flirting with.  Is he not embarrased he is married with kids.  I don't see the woman her back is to me.  And I tell myself listen just do your work don't look at her.  You're mind will probably start wandering even more.  There are no seats and he makes his way to the back where I'm sitting.  I busy myself with my work.  Towards the end of the ride he turns to me and says . . . oh meet my daughter.  At that point I feel like a piece of garbage.  Here it's aseres yemei teshuva I should be dan someone lcaf zechus and all I could think of is that he's flirting with this girl when instead he's just having a good time with his daughter who just came back from out of town.

So I was thinking about it this morning.  How would I apply the fourth step to this incident.  What hit me was that my initial upset was probably not because I was concerned with his marriage or what he was doing.  More likely I was just jealous with the relationship that he was having with someone.  I tried to think if there is someone in my life that I would be able to have that simple good time with.  Maybe with one of my daughters it would depend on whether she was so distracted.  Certainly not with my wife.  I can have a good time with her but not in public like that.  I realize now that it was that subconscious tinge of jealously that manifested itself into a holier than thou attitude which caused me to suspect him in the first place.  That's my thought.  What you all think?

The whole incident drove home how careful I need be to try and be dan everyone lkaf zechus but I think focusing in it showed me that I have to be on the lookour for this feeling.

Sounds good to me. If you'd like to, I suggest trying your hand at the four columns on the incident, awkward as it may feel. You have nothing to lose.

Again, the 4th step is a moral inventory of ourselves. So I am plugging for the 4th step inventory: a few good sittings just to write out as many emotional struggles as you can come up with that plague you. From as far back as you can remember until this very day. All the stuff that made a big enough impression on you to remember years later, cuz you live with it. Anything you need to squeeze out into your memory is likely a non-issue...just what you remember and think is m'rakeid in your head at times. 

No solutions at all.

Just the list of the facts as best we can see them.

That's it. No kabalos and no suggestions for getting better, at all. It's the 4th step, and talk of solutions has no place. Just keep going till you feel you have covered all you can, then move onto the next steps afterward.

Dov thanks for the clarification re the 4th step. The worksheet I was using is setup differently from what you described. The problem is that it had more of a check-off chart with respect to how the particular issue effects me,I.e, my pride, pocketbook, sex, etc.  I see the maaleh of having to write these things out rather than just checking something off. Hopefully chol hamoed will provide this opportunity. A good yom tov to all.

Sounds good!

Ok I need help on fourth stepping something.  I was in shul this morning and I realized that I get really annoyed at a certain Rov (and I recalled having the same feeling towards a different Rov when I was growing up) when they put on what I consider a show, like these loud outbursts of kavannah.  For example, he will shout out shema.  It all seems very fake.  I'm not sure why it bothers me.  Its not like it's hurting me.  The only things I could think of is that it threatens my pride or I'm just jealous, although if I really believe it's fake then why would I be jealous. 

Two things:

This issue is parallel to the perennial GYE question of, "Well, how do I know I am an addict? Maybe I am just a ba'al tayva and have a bigger than normal YH for schmutz. Yes, it bothers me, and yes, I know all about 'doing teshuvah (I've done it seventy-five times already, :o on this very same thing!). But who says I need to bring out the big guns; that I must actually learn how to live a different way? That's kind of drastic, you know. Maybe I'm just a nice Jewish boy with a little problem?!"

And for me, the response is:

Well, you may be right. The only question is whether it bothers you enough. True, a normal person might see the cost of what I am doing and freak out, saying, "are you a lunatic!? You have everything going for you and look at what suffering you are causing yourself and those around you...what about your future - can't you see that it will not stop tomorrow, just like it didn't stop today? (and you were pretty sure yesterday that it would...) Before this is over, it will certainly will destroy everything you have and a lot that others around you have! You absolutely need to stop!"

Nope. They are wrong. Until I see that I need to stop, I cannot stop. And even then, I absolutely cannot stop on my own. That seems to be the way it works. Unless I finally come to view myself as having a hopeless - yes, hopeless - problem, a problem even bigger than I am, I will not get the help I really need. I will stick band-aides all over myself...haven't we all?

So it is with working the 4th step process on our emotional mishegaas'n. We can't seem to really take it as seriously as we must, until we are bothered by it; until we see that it really makes our lives unmanageable; that it is something we really do not want any more. That is the 6th step.

You can write it out, as you have, but the question you are now apparently asking is, "How do I know if I am tired of this resentment yet? That I do not really need/want it any more?" It seems to me that you are on the sixth step, chaver.

That's the first thing.

The second thing is this:

Is this a big fish for you? OK, fine, I am not suggesting to sweep it under the rug, but could you perhaps have greater resentments and bigger, wider-ranging issues. Issues that feed your addiction? You - we all - probably do.

Let's ask Hashem to reveal a bit more of the truth about ourselves so we get the biggest bang for our buck. There may be elephants in the room. By all means, pursue this lead with all you've got - but be ready for having some scales removed from your eyes and take Hashem's lead for further growth.

Hatzlocha,

Dov

Okay I got to get moving again.  The fourth step has been a struggle for me just getting the time to put it all on paper.  Its a little odd since I actually appreciate the fourth step since it really gets me focused on what issues I have to deal with.  So I am going to start at least the first one or two columns right here now.  Ive written these before to myself.  Most of these are not current resentments.  I'm actually on a high right now with my wife.  Even though she's ossur to me, we are both acting like newlyweds.

I've gotten resentful at:

My wife -- particualry when

1.  She's refused to have sex with me.
2.  She spends beyond our means.
3.  She criticizes me.
4.  She doesn't want to have to do with my family.
5.  She's given me the silent treatment.
6.  I feel she given more attention to her program or others than to me.

My daughters -- when

1.  They don't listen.
2.  They don't want to have a relationship with me.

One particular daughter -- when

1.  She talks with complete chutzpah

My siblings and brothers and sisters-in law

1.  When they show my parents disrespect

My mother -- when

1.  She criticizes my wife.
2.  She criticizes me, in particular for not keeping in touch with her enough, or not attending some family event.

My father -- when

1.  He doesn't get along with my mother
2.  Embarrases me by being a flirt.

People who talk or blackberry in shul.

Banks for charging me too many fees.

My original list had G-d with a question mark for not giving me enough money to meet my needs.  It had a question mark because anytime I really feel that way I tell myself that given all that I have done wrong I only have myself to blame.  So in reality I'm just upset with myself since I know that I've caused my predicament.

This will have to suffice for now.

Im going to try and finish the third and fourth column with respect to my wife.  Truth is its a little difficult because I'm on such a high with her that I really don't want to focus on the negative.  At the same time, I got to be realistic and realize that life is somewhat cyclical and that if it happened in the past, its likely to recur again unless the root of the problem is dealt with.  Hashem please help me see this through.

So basically, I would get resentful at my wife when she did not want to have sex when I did.  If I was in the mood for sex and she wasn't I began to just feel that she obviously did not love me and care for me as much as she should which caused me to tense up with her which only drove her further away from me which caused me to get restless, hound her why she was ignoring me ultimately driving her to completely shut down with me not even wanting to talk with me.  A vicious cycle. 
This resentment I guess effected my self-esteem since if I was good and satisfying for her she woud obviously want me.  It effected my emotional security since I would be overcome with this feeling that the only way I would be able to deal with life was by her giving in to me and having sex.  And I wouldn't be able to cope and deal with life because she had refused to have sex with me.
I believe that there were multiple character defects that was to blame for this conduct.  First and foremost, I think I was just being selfish and inconsiderate.  I now know and I knew then when I stopped to analyze it rationally that she really loves me and actually adores me.  Usually her non-interest was simply exhaustion or me driving her away by being so-focused on only sex.  I also now know that a large part of it was hormonal since she was on the pill.  The major differences between now and a year ago is 1) I am sober; 2)  She is off the pill and really a different woman.  I am sure there is an element of jealousy in there too.  Because my world-view was molded by porn and the promiscious lifestyle that society portrays I convinced myself that everyone else out there is having sex all the time and I'm stuck with a woman who just doesn't get it. 

ur-a-jew wrote on 17 Oct 2010 14:53:


man, do our wives know each other?! jesus,  there must be some place where they all learn to be this way. We've come to the point where my wife and i call each other pb and j. she pb (psycho bitch)  and im j (jerk). its kinda tongue in chek but its kinda not.

David's erudite and sensitive post notwithstanding, here is an idea that has nothing strictly to do with the 4th step, but more like 8 and 9:

How about agreeing (in your own heart - don't say a word to her about it) to shift your focus in bed for just one day from sex and getting what you want in it (which is quite natural for anybody and certainly for an addict), to having a nice time holding her and just having fun with her. Chill a bit about the 'tachlis' and look into starting to practice the feeling of enjoying her physical company rather than...the ummm, technically sexual act. These women (even the pb-types) may be in a rough spot. They may be wanting some fun and sweetness yet cannot even imagine asking for it from a guy who they know is so focused on the right position of whatever...gevalt.

What do any of us have to lose?

Hatzlocha!

One of the people on my fourth step list is my father when he causes me to be embarrassed. I wrote when he flirts but its not limited to that its his whole outgoing personality including his ability to tell his life story details and all to people he has just meet and making his presence known wherever he goes. He really is nice but when you're his son (to me it could be very embarrassing). A couple of days ago I had the opportunity to use the fourth step when I was together with him. I don't think I got any less embarrassed or annoyed but it was comforting to have this awareness of what was going on within me and it allowed me to focus on positive things about him (and when I later described it all to my wife she remarked how she had never seen me open up about this before)
So my father picks me up early in the morning to pay a shiva call at a relative. We come and there are only two people there and my dad is well what's for breakfast. I'm mortified, they knowing my father show him where the cake is. After davening, breakfast is waiting for him and they tell me to sit and eat as well. I'm just so annoyed that I insist that I'm not eating although no one understands why and inside I'm just tense because of the whole incident.
Now as soon as the what's for breakfast comment was made bells starting going off in my head saying fourth step. Having already put this on the list I knew I was in the danger zone.  At the same time it was competing with the gaavah feeling of can't we just do what were supposed to be menachem avel and not make this into a whole production. I didn't really get passed the fourth step since the resentment really just sat in me and for the most part stayed with me until I got to the office.
At the same I did tell myself focus on the positive. So what I saw was that the same outspoken attitude allowed my father to say brochos out loud whereas I couldn't bring myself to do it.  And regardless of his motivation for picking me up (I did the driving) if it wasn't for him I wouldn't have gone and I was actually glad that I did go. 

ur-a-jew wrote on 15 Jul 2010 15:00:


Somebody asked me about this yesterday because it seems it was never answered.  I guess I would answer it myself in three different ways. 

First, if I do my first step honestly, I would see that during the times when I succumbed to lust, I didn't want to.  I told myself I'll look a little and zeh hu.  But it never really worked that way.  Once I started down the road of lust I wasn't able to stop (at least not until I made myself sick).  So when I do it honestly, I do see even the first look as suicide.  Second, one of the advantages of being around fellow addicts is that we get to see our own weaknesses in other people.  While I may not be see my downfall from looking at the first image from my own conduct, I see how that happens to others and I apply it to myself. 
Third, having obtained a little sobriety and started learning to love life, I realize that, to the extent I am able to, I never want to give this up.  I think to myself, there is no way I want to go back to where I was.  Why in the world would I want to go back to a situation where I have to live a double life with my wife, my friends and my rabbeim.  So the longer that I am sober the more I see acting out as suicide. 

That was beautiful. Thanks again, chaver.