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Re: Installed's Thread 25 Jun 2010 19:57 #72217

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installed wrote on 23 Jun 2010 03:22:

==> Over what, exactly, am I powerless? Pornography and masturbation. OK, so I guess/think you mean "the desire for these things" and not the things themselves - Porn isn't making me do anything...it's in the internet or inside a magazine, for crying out loud. It has no power over anyone I know. We give it our power...now the shayloh the book is asking you is: How does that happen? What makes you open the magazine, click the icon, unzip whatever...in other words, "exactly what are you powerless over?"

Please bear with me before you punch me in the nose.

The guys who convince themselves that they are powerless over "porn" and over "masturbation" are, in my opinion, the same fellows who whine all summer long about the women dressing in a triggering manner, instead of looking at themselves and recognizing that "the problem isn't the women, it's me. My problem is that I am so prone to lusting (my brains out)."

Remember - this step is not about the solution and gives no answers or strategies, at all. It is about gaining clarity. Not clarity in THE problem, but in MY problem. Not in the reasons for my weakness, but in the facts of what I am so prone to that I have been doing it unstoppably for a decade or two, even though it makes me nuts. The solution is the rest of the steps, not here. And without clarity and recognition of the fact that LUST - my lust - makes living in a world with women, billboards, a wife, 19yo girls of my own/my brothers' and sisters-in-law...all that ...impossible. My Lust makes it impossible for me because I have no power to use and control it - nor do I have any reliability in "killing" it or "fighting" it. I suck at that, and fail, every time. I will keep acting out, and it will keep getting worse, or more frequent, or both.
So. What exactly are you powerless over?


==> I've done things while acting out on my addiction that I would never do when focusing on recovery. Watching pornography. (I admit that I may be totally off base with this and with anything else I am saying, but it is what comes to mind for me and I am really just sharing it with you to efshar help. I bear only the highest respect for you and if you do not believe that, too bad.) OK. How about the hiding, which is essentially lying to the others around you. They think you are a sweet, clean guy. It's g'neivas da'as. Have you had to lie about what you were doing or where you were going in order to support and protect your habit? Hey - you are not a liar, but a good man! (evidence: you are here working on this garbage!) Yet in our addiction we do all this crapola.

I do not in any way intend on increasing any guilt-factor with all this. It's totally different than that. I am only trying to open up the mirror for you and for myself, to see the whole me and the true extent of my problem.


==> How does my personality change when I'm acting out on my addiction? (For example: Do I become arrogant? Self-centered? Mean-tempered? Passive to the point where I can't protect myself? Manipulative? Whiny?) Not much, perhaps a bit self-centred.

==> Do I manipulate other people to maintain my addiction? How? Not applicable to me (still single).

==> Have I tried to quit using and found that I couldn't? Have I quit using on my own and found that my life was so painful without drugs that my abstinence didn't last very long? What were these times like? I kinda tried several times after Rosh Hashana / Yom Kippur but can’t really say that I ever tried seriously. I’m currently trying and it’s a struggle.They are also asking what it felt like and how you functioned during the times you were struggling with it on your own.

PS. I am currently on a bus trip back home - for at least another hour - and preShabbos trips like this drive me nuts, but it was unavoidable. There is a couple in the bus seat next over who are getting smoochy and if I look that way it will be bad for me and here I am sharing this with you because I do not possess the power needed to stay clear of the curiosity and looking. I ask Hashem, Please help me stay free of the desire to see what they are doing and help me be so happy with what it is that I am doing right now on GYE and with You. Help me appreciate the gift of this fantastic hour of recovery work, and help these young people be truly good to each other and succeed in all the precious departments of life. OK. back to the long slog of GYE!....(thanks)


==> How has my addiction caused me to hurt myself or others? My addiction caused me to focus on myself. I hurt myself by wasting time and perhaps my connection with hashem. I’ll be hurting other people if I don’t stop (my future wife and children). Gevalt. What you write sounds like you are not absolutely certain that lusting and being a prisoner of lust damages your relationship with Hashem. I see that being overwhelmed by lust and using this drug is saying in my heart that "I will go after lust wherever it leads me. I need this thing!!" Again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with right and wrong. It is all about the way I work, truly, and what's really going on in me when I am lohut achar images of women and after fantasy, and after orgasm feelings.
More later be"H


Unmanageability


==> What does unmanageability mean to me? At times, I feel like I’m living a double life which makes me feel worthless. I also believe that it was not my responsibility to take care of my addiction; it is my wife’s responsibility to satisfy my needs.

==> What trouble have I had at work or school because of my addiction? What trouble have I had with my family as a result of my addiction? I didn’t have trouble with my family but my addiction interfered with my productivity levels at school and at work.

==> Do I consider the needs of others? What effect has my lack of consideration had on my relationships? I’m not married yet N/A.

==> Do I accept responsibility for my life and my actions? Yes, I accept responsibility for my life and my actions.

Am I able to carry out my daily responsibilities without becoming overwhelmed? How has this affected my life? Depends on the “responsibilities’ but I can always do better and want to be more productive.

==> Do I fall apart the minute things don't go according to plan? How has this affected my life? No.

==> Do I treat every challenge as a personal insult? How has this affected my life? I don’t get the question.

==> Do I maintain a crisis mentality, responding to every situation with panic? How has this affected my life? No.

==> Do I ignore signs that something may be seriously wrong with my health or with my children, thinking things will work out somehow? Describe. Yes. I act out even though I date frum girls. I know that my actions are a betrayal of their trust but I act out anyway. I always rationalize my actions by thinking that things will work out after marriage.

==> Have I ever harmed someone as a result of my addiction? Describe. No but my addiction will hurt someone if I don’t resolve it.

==> Do I have temper tantrums or react to my feelings in other ways that lower my self-respect or sense of dignity? Describe. No.

==> Did I act out on my addiction to change or suppress my feelings? What was I trying to change or suppress? Yes. I usually act out when I’m under stress or when I have something important to do but don’t want to face it (i.e homework). Acting out is an escape from reality. It enables me to suppress my feelings of responsibility.

Surrender

==> Do I accept that I'll never regain control, even after a long period of abstinence? Not yet. I guess it’s a process.

==> Can I begin my recovery without a complete surrender? No.

==> Can I continue my recovery without complete surrender? No. I must surrender in order to recover. Living in denial is not a solution.

Spiritual principles

If I've been thinking about using or acting out on my addiction in some other way, have I shared it with my sponsor or told anyone else? I’ve shared it on the forum. I don’t have a sponsor.

==> Have I stayed in touch with the reality of my disease, no matter how long I've had freedom from active addiction? Yes.

==> In what ways am I practicing open-mindedness? I believe the members here that suggest that marriage won’t solve my problems. I also believe that there is a slippery slope and that if I continue, I can end up doing things in the future that seem impossible to me today. 

==> Am I willing to go to meetings regularly? Yes.

==> Am I willing to give recovery my best effort? In what ways? Yes. By reducing many of the triggers.

==> Do I believe that I'm a monster who has poisoned the whole world with my addiction? No.

Do I believe that my addiction is utterly inconsequential to the larger society around me? Or something in between? It can be consequential in the future but not currently.

==> Do I have a sense of my relative importance within my circle of family and friends? In society as whole? What is that sense? Yes. I’m a good son, brother, and friend and mean a lot to them.

==> How am I practicing the principle of humility in connection with this work on the First Step? I’m accepting my failures and I’m surrendering.

==> Have I made peace with the fact that I'm an addict? Yes.

==> Have I made peace with the things I'll have to do to stay clean? Yes.

==> How is acceptance of my disease necessary for my continued recovery? The only way for me to recover is to realize that I’m addicted. I won’t be able to work on the solution if I feel that I’m in control.
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 25 Jun 2010 20:29 #72222

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Hey Dov,

Wow, I didn't expect such a personal/detailed response, it's much appreciated. I didn't have a chance to read your reply in detail (I need some privacy for that). I'll be away until Sunday night and I'll definitely read it carefully once I get back. Thanks so much for all your support! Oh BTW guilt is GOOD for me so please feel free to be blunt! I like being told off when it is constructive and to the point.

Have a great shabbos!

Avraham. 
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Re: Installed's Thread 27 Jun 2010 21:09 #72325

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I was gonna write a book once on how to beat procrastination and laziness, but I can't seem to ever get to it.

Yawn.
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Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Jun 2010 02:08 #72346

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Huh? You said it was a book about memory, not procrastination! Did you forget?
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Jun 2010 02:16 #72348

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Lol, you guys are great! Thanks for everything.
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Re: Installed's Thread 29 Jun 2010 05:09 #72479

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Thanks for sharing a big chunk of your story and life!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 05 Jul 2010 05:13 #73030

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Hey guys,

I hope that you are all doing well. I was extremely busy during the last few days and didn't have a chance to drop by until now. Does anyone know if we should be working on the 2nd step yet? I'm also a bit confused with the phone conference day and time.

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Re: Installed's Thread 06 Jul 2010 14:49 #73143

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You could be working on step 2 if youd like. I suggest you read the NA workbook and Dov suggested we make a list of things that we 'worrship' (No, not in the avodah zara way). Obviously 'lust' would be on that list. If you have more questions about this feel free to ask and I'll answer tot he best of my ability based on what Dov said to do.

Here's the link for the NA workbook:

milkmanscircle.net/Milkman's%20CircleD2/Templates/na_workbook/na_workbook.htm

Good luck!
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Re: Installed's Thread 06 Jul 2010 16:38 #73164

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Hey Yiddle2,

Thanks for keeping me posted. I'll do my "homework" before the session tonight. Is the list of things we worship part of the first step?
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Re: Installed's Thread 06 Jul 2010 16:46 #73166

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They likely will overlap. I put things on my list that I didnt mention in my first step (even though I could have). They dont have to be physical. They could be emotions.
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Re: Installed's Thread 06 Jul 2010 16:50 #73168

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Hey Aaron4,

I hope you are doing well. There are several practical things that I do.

1) I make myself a list of priorities and force myself to stick to it. I used to be all over the place. I would start something but would then intentionally distract myself. I would look for something that needs to be done which is less annoying. I messed up on several assignments and therefore decided to start this habit. I don't allow myself to start a new thing until I finish the first thing on my list.

2) When I started to work on this problem, I used to log all my daily activities in detail and would give it to my brother. P & M were logged as "wasting computer time". I was at first embarrassed from myself but eventually my bro really gave it to me (we are really close) and he got on top of it. This only works if you are comfortable with criticism (it can make things worse for some people).

3) I strongly believe that if I get my P & M under control it will help as well. It's not that I spend so much time doing it but it is the lack of self discipline that is so destructive for me. The urge for sex is obviously so much stronger so I'm making a kal vchomer  .

4) As I wrote above, I read the enneagram  once on a flight and I really got hooked. I find it to be extremely accurate and it enables me to catch myself in the act of a typical negative pattern that someone like me is prone to do. Generally speaking my personality type has a problem with dealing directly with issues (for example, will have a very difficult time saying "no"). It explains why etc. and it is so accurate that it is almost scary. I was also able to better understand the needs and insecurities of  myself and others because of it.

5) I started using K9s internet block. You can set it to block all internet access for x amount of time. Getting a notice of a new email or checking GYE can be a major distraction.

6) Dov was saying that "Sometimes procrastination and laziness are just avoidance behavior and I discover that I have a problem with Fear, resentment, or some other mishega'as that motivates me to avoid". and this is certainly true. Dov, you were michaven to the enneagram.

These things worked for me. I'm far from perfect and it will probably be my nisayon for life. I always say that even though it is difficult, I have to be thankful that my life is in order, and that it is doable. Many people have nisyonot that are much more difficult and potentially destructive (like jealousy, anger, greed, stinginess etc). We all have our own nisyonot and that is what we are here for (I'm talking to myself).

Anyway, I hope that this helps. If you have any questions or would like to discuss it, don't hesitate to contact me.

Good shabbos.


I can't believe I didn't see this earlier (procrastination, perhaps  ?)  Thanks for the tips.  What's this enneagram
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Re: Installed's Thread 06 Jul 2010 19:49 #73194

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Hey,

The post is not time sensitive  :.

You can read a basic description herehttp://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp. It may look complicated and simplistic at the same time. Many people get turned of by it because they feel that it "boxes them into a category", but in reality it is extremely vast. As I said earlier, it has helped me to better understand myself and the people around me. If you have any questions about it or if you would like me to recommend a book, please let me know.   
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Re: Installed's Thread 08 Jul 2010 20:19 #73438

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Hey Guys,

I hope that you are all doing well. I practically completed the first step and will be working on the second step now. I feel that this group is a bit too virtual for me (but going to a regular SA is not an option). If anyone here feels that same and would like to shmooze over the phone (just to get to know each other a bit), please PM me. The phone conferences are great but it is a bit awkward for me and i think that getting to know you guys better will change things. Either way, I love being part of this group and I appreciate all your inputs.

Good shabbos,

Avraham.
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Re: Installed's Thread 12 Jul 2010 23:55 #73817

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1- any people or groups, kinds of people, or situations, that I give my power to. Meaning: that I behave differently 
    or unnaturally self-conscious around them/it, whether I want to or not - it just happens automatically; I apparently 
    need those people and act in a way to get something from them.

I act differently in front of women but especially in front of girls my age. I also act differently in front of non-Jews.


2- Anything/any person that I put my trust in, in lieu of Hashem; that I strive for recognition from, reward from, or whatever - besides Hashem. No judgment or moral measuring of myself here, and guilt is irrelevant...just the facts as they are. And Lust is obviously one of them for us, for we pursue lust opportunities as though they can help us and do so with dedication, regularity, devotion, and with some degree of self-sacrifice. Don't we? Eerily, those things are all aspects of avodas Hashem, aren't they? OK, so  I tend to go to something/someone other than G-d for some of my needs, and that's a problem. It leaves me with a sterile, usesless higher power. No?
Lust, my brother, myself (don't know if that counts), food (don't know if it counts as well)

3- Many folks write all the reasons they can think of that they do trust and use Hashem, and the feelings they have sometimes that make them afraid to trust and use Hashem. This one is often a biggie.


1)I trust Hashem because I'm very limited and I believe that there is a power that runs the world. This basically leaves me with no choice but to trust in him.

2)Trusting in Hashem enables me to have less worries (it's comforting to believe that whatever happens is ultimately part of "Hashems plans" and for the best.

I have a hard time believing in Hashem when I act out or do things that are against His commandments. For example, masturbation is such a natural thing and it's hard for me to believe that this is a "fair commandment/avairah".

The first two reasons that compel me to believe are also reasons for me not to believe. We are limited people and having Hashem in our lives is comforting. Hashem may be a human invention and we may believe in him for these very reasons.     


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Re: Installed's Thread 13 Jul 2010 01:10 #73827

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I Procrastinate many things but the more I look at it the more I realize it's fear.  I have this sub conscious fear of doing certain things at work and whenever I face the possibility of needing to do those things I always find myself acting out.  The need to act out or just surf the web always felt so strong but I never pinpointed why it’s happening

I didn't realize it for years but now b'h I am at least noticing it. 
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