BenHashemBH wrote on 19 Aug 2024 15:29:

Oh I told him I wouldn't want him as my webchaver regardless. But I don't really want anyone seeing all my browsing history - nothing to do with porn. It just feels like an invasion of privacy. (I'm not saying that's a good or correct feeling. But that's the internal resistance I'm feeling. I think I could make that "sacrifice" if necessary, the main reason I haven't done it yet is because I know it'll raise a red flag by my wife (and, yes, I know all the excuses and ways to push it by. But given my specific situation I think it'll raise a red flag.))

I actually think the feeling of Friday being a "just get ready for shabbos" day is what makes it more difficult. Buckling down and working a full workday on Friday would probably be more helpful for this than adding more shabbos prep.

Saw a post from a therapist on Linkedin about quitting pornography that I'm curious to hear the chevra's thoughts on:


Snazzy tik-tok style video aside (flashing subtitles in different fonts and all) I think this sounds nice, but presents a barrier to getting clean.

Start living life, but no guarantees it'll be happy and fulfilling.

Also, there totally are people (on this site!) who have gotten clean just by opening up and getting some filters and accountability without changing their whole attitude to life.

(Obviously, not judging this guy's therapy skills or approach based on one post, but judging this one post.)

chosemyshem wrote on 19 Aug 2024 17:36:

Bring back the snazz and put it in The Grouchery.

I can certainly understand and appreciate the strategy.
Is it the one and only path? Nah.
Is he claiming it is? It seems so.
If that's the case, I guess we will judge his therapy skills. Is that wrong? Are you judging me for being judgemental?

I think he's saying something similar to the popular mehalach that you don't want to just stop, you need to start. 

Starting to live a new life without pornography vs trying to cut pornography out of your current life. 

Both can work, but starting to live a new life has less white-knuckling willpower involved.

Being happy in life is definitely effected by your circumstances, but much of it is a choice. 
Eizeh hu ashir?

Anyone else notice a new "delete" button by their posts?

Anyway. I wrote something on someone else's thread that hit me hard after I wrote it:


I feel so much dumber about trying to get around filters than I do about watching porn. Porn I can justify - there are urges, drives, it's a powerful drug etc. etc. 

But poking for hours for one small image to get around the filter just feels dumb. 
And it's so weird. I installed the filter. I could uninstall it and no one could say anything or stop me. But I don't do that. I don't go buy a device or find access to an unfiltered device. Instead I just poke and poke and poke, looking for an image the filter doesn't block or a non-pornographic video with an attractive woman that will get through. Just freaking weird.

Yesterday was a filter poking day. Not nearly as bad as some other days, but bad enough that I feel like it counts as a fall. Bad enough that I blew hours of work on stupidity. Bad enough that I left work late and my wife was annoyed. Bad enough that I feel like it made my life worse.

Is there any difference between watching porn and trying to get around a filter to try to watch porn?

For me, I don't feel much of a difference, except that when I watch porn or masturbate it pulls me to repeat it much more than filter poking (which is an important thing).

Just feels dumb.

chosemyshem wrote on 21 Aug 2024 18:43:

Shalom Brother Shem,

I think (at least for you) that there is probably a difference in the process, though with a similar outcome. Poking a filter could be something of a challenge, and there is no guarantee you'll succeed - so it may seem less deliberate. As you said, you have direct ways to access porn if that was your goal. 

So there is the challenge, that perhaps starts more innocently, and then you are hooked with "just one my try" - continuing out of curiosity. Still no absolute outcome. Vs you have no excuse if going straight for it. 

If feels the same because you are cheating yourself, knowing that it has no toeles other than the possible 'success' at the end - which you aren't doing directly, but you are still doing it. You are still giving in to doing something that you are trying not to do, albeit in a more subtle way. So you feel as bad about it afterwards. The same lack of control, veiled behind the justified choosing of something that's not as blatant.

Kol Tov

chosemyshem wrote on 21 Aug 2024 18:43:

Yeah. It feels dumb. 
I was a compulsive filter-poker. 

I think that filter-poking is a true expression of a soul in conflict. Screaming “אוי לי מיוצרי אוי לי מיצרי״” at the same time. A deep part of the soul wanting to lock away the possibility of lust , and another deep part simultaneously craving it. 

Falling into the sweaty armpit of hazy hot unblocked porn is a sickening dive into toxic intoxicating sensuality- the higher part of the Neshoma gets trampled down and silenced. 

Filter-poking is an ode to the part of you that will not allow yourself to remove the filter, yet at the same time thrusting his fist against the posts trying desperately scratch the horribly compelling itch…

So, yes- filter-poking may be intellectually stupid. But I think it’s not coming from a stupid place. Because the conflict in your Neshoma means that the Turkey Slug King is very much IN THE GAME. 

maybe this is just drivel that I made up once upon a time to make myself feel better.

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2024 20:36:

Great post!
Love it,
Thanks CO,

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2024 20:36:

It's hard to know.

Someone once said they used to go to massage parlors but they always made sure the woman was not Jewish. Because G-d forbid they get involved with an eishes ish.

And I don't want to take away from the undeniable fact that there's some benefit in that. Some nekuda of self control, some schar for avoiding an aveirah. 

But that's on Hashem's cheshbon. On the person's cheshbon, that's basically retarded.

You're doing horrible things and you're worried about this random small nekudah? You have no life, your entire life is dedicated to serving your lust, you're slowly but surely sacrificing your humanity on the alter of Aphrodite, and this arbitrary halachic line is what you're hanging on to??

You're like a guy who's likely got cancer and you got to the doctor because you're worried about an ankle sprain. Yeah an ankle sprain is annoying. But, like, why aren't you talking about your cancer that will kill you? (Dov's metaphor, and the story and general take on the massage parlor guy is from him too.)

And we all do this. We throw up these arbitrary red lines. I do this but not that, or not on that day, or not with that person. And that's fine, and saying that has no value is false.
The unfortunate nature of lust is it eventually sucks everything into its gaping maw, and that red line will almost inevitably shatter, but having the red line is undeniably not a problem and has real benefit.

It's when we point to the red line and say, "well, at least I didn't cross the line" that is so sick. 

Who cares if you didn't cross that arbitrary line. That's not a lifeline pulling you back on shore, it's a red herring floating by as you keep on drowning. And pointing to that red herring is only a distraction that is stopping you from calling from help as you slide further into the whirlpool.

Except not. Because sometimes it's not a red herring. Sometimes growth is slow and steady and you can slowly cut back and crawl back to shore; broken, battered, but alive. 

And externally the red line that's a lifesaver and the red line that's a distraction can look the same. Even internally it's nearly impossible to tell them apart.

So you have to know. But it's hard to know.

chosemyshem wrote on 21 Aug 2024 21:08:

Does the red line really make you feel better about yourself, or just better about what you are doing?

chosemyshem wrote on 21 Aug 2024 21:08:

I get your point. But your analogy is not apt. 

Im a big fan of Dov’s posts, but Im not sure the “take no prisoners” straight-at-you cutthroat attack on the the lust-fanatic is appropriate here. 

A filter-poker is not the same as the guy who is going to massage parlors and making frum distinctions (usually). It’s more similar to the guy who notices every time he passes the strip club and cranes his neck but never stops and goes in. 

 I think it’s foolish and wrong to paint everyone who has any problem with lust with the same tar-and-feather brush. No, a guy who pokes his filter but doesn’t uninstall it is not a simpering, lifeless, completely out-of-control lust addict who is just fooling himself. Nay. 

If there is no difference of degree, then we have lost perspective. 

I respect the hell out of Dov, but don’t tell me that a sip of lust while you are working on yourself is the same as a ten gallons dive. (Yes, I know that an addict is one who can’t take even a sip. That’s irrelevant here). 

I think I understand the point he means to make. It’s valid, but not to the extent that it destroys compassion, understanding, and perspective. 

If is sound mad, I am. 
I don’t want someone (you) convincing you that you’re worthless until you’re totally clean. And any compassionate thought to the contrary is that red herring in your post. Hell no. A thousand times nay. 

You’re my friend and I believe that you can get there one step at a time. Whichever step system you choose to use. You shall choose your steps to freedom, cleanliness, hope and joy. 

Im chaimoigen and i think you are worth more than you are thinking you are.

I'd like to jump in here too if I may. 

I love the points chaimoigen made, I'd like to just add to this discussion what's pertinent to our subject - you.

Chosemyshem, I now know you for about 100 days. A short period of time to be sure - but we've had tens of conversations during that time period, some long and many intense. All revolved around this battle we jointly face, all focusing on strategies, tools, plans, and any methods we can try to get past this damned beast.

I must say, I see clearly your upward growth you've made over this short span of time, even if you don't or won't (the latter I believe). You are brilliant, insightful, brutally honest, probing, and refreshingly clear. However, to a fault. The standards you hold yourself to are beautiful, but not if it entails putting down my dear friend chosemyshem... 

It's time for me to publicly call out your shaming of one our best and brightest. It's time I announce for the entire GYE that chosemyshem has come a mighty long way.... You may not be at your goal or exactly where you want to be, but you're miles ahead of where you were when we first spoke. 

I might add, I can already see the horizon shining brightly where chosemyshem takes his place amongst GYE leaders and reaches his lofty goals in this precious Avodas Hakedusha..........

Signing off with a heart brimming with respect and brotherly love,
Muttel

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2024 23:36:

I spent a long time thinking about that post about red lines and then you just blew it out of the water. I'll have to circle back around to that one day.

While I totally agree that there are differences of degree, it's sometimes hard to tell externally how sick someone is. I have seen people post here about "just" fantasy or "looking at women on the street" and they were clearly sicker than people who were actively acting out with other people. 
It's more of a question of how deep the lust has sunk in, not the actions it's driving you to do. Most of the time, the external actions are a pretty reliable indicator for how deep the lust has gotten in, but not always.

Like I said, you have to know yourself.

So if we're talking about me again, most of the time I think what I'm doing now is better than what I was doing then. But sometimes I catch the smell of death in the air and I wonder . . .

Spent way too much time at work yesterday reading a very stupid novel. And then decided I had to work last night to finish the tasks I procrastinated on while reading.

Unsurprisingly, this was a thinly disguised plan to continue reading the novel and I ended up reading on my computer till after 1. That situation has been a very dangerous time for me. For years I would stay up late "working" or "finishing schoolwork" (lying to myself as well as my wife) and as soon as my wife went to bed I'd take a "break" with reading some trashy novel, settle down into the posture of pornography, and then slide slowly and sweetly into whatever erotic content I could dig up on my filtered computer.

I didn't have any urges last night. But it's been a few months since I put myself into that situation and I'd forgotten how crucial it is to not put myself into that situation. Gotta keep that up.

And so now the work still needs to be done. But I know unless I've got some insane deadline I'm not getting anything productive done on the computer after 10:30ish. So why sit down on the slippery slope.

chosemyshem wrote on 27 Aug 2024 13:29:

Wow!!!
What a milestone!!!

Shem
Keep Flying!!