chosemyshem wrote on 03 Jul 2024 20:06:

I repeat:
proudyungerman wrote on 03 Jul 2024 20:05:


 (it's sunny in Burma...)

chosemyshem wrote on 03 Jul 2024 20:06:

Needed to hear that, thanks! 

chosemyshem wrote on 03 Jul 2024 20:06:

That's the point in the story of R' Elazar Ben Dordaya.

He had sex with every prostitute he could lay his hand on. The OG sex addict.

When he wanted to get clean, he turned to many programs. 
Mountains and hills, Heaven and earth, Sun and moon, Stars and constellations.
They all turned him away. Nothing worked for him.

Till he realized that "programs" don't "work." It's up to me.
And he cried like he never cried before. It's a painful realization that, ultimately, I'm on my own. No one's coming to pick me up.

But it's also a liberating realization. Now, I can actually start working on it and make it my own.

thompson wrote on 04 Jul 2024 14:22:

Great point and well taken. (Maybe the place to make it from was not from the story of the Rabbi who literally chose death since he knew he couldn't live a different life.)

chosemyshem wrote on 04 Jul 2024 14:34:

I wouldn't say he chose death per se. For him, that was the only way out.

In fact, according to some commentaries, what he was seeking from these failed programs was to be able to stay alive. Dying was not his first choice. I'd say it wasn't his choice at all.

In any case, I highly doubt that anyone here is even close to his, uh, caliber, addicts or non-addicts alike.

I thought he died as he did teshuva, he cried until his soul left him, not that he requested to die. Am I mistaken?

Here is an article from Aish with various peshatim, with linked footnotes: aish.com/48922222/

While his gesture is grand and his resolve admirable, why did he need to die? The Talmud says that his corruption was so all-consuming, his indulgence so addictive, that it was as if he was an idolater. He worshipped(13) his own lust with all his heart and all his soul and all his possessions. He was willing to cross seven(14) rivers; he took all the money that was required, for his soul was consumed by his addiction. In order to be healed he needed to use the same forces: he now needed to serve God with all his heart all his soul and all his possessions. Perhaps this intense reversal is what led to his death. Perhaps his death was actually a kindness(15) on the part of God; for such a corrupt man to have reached a spiritual high is quite impressive, but how would this man conduct himself on a day-to-day basis? With his addiction subdued or under control, what would his life have been? Would he have been able to sustain this religious high with any consistency? Or was death an escape? Perhaps the only way he would gain a share in the world to come was by leaving the world at the time of his pinnacle, the moment he cried and achieved purity.

Our conclusion must be that Teshuva is always possible, though at times the effects of sin are so profound that they cannot be elevated. Death alone brings atonement. The uplifting message of the story, indeed the message and teaching of Rabbi Eleazar ben Durdaya, is that Teshuva is always accessible, purity always possible, a share in the world to come always available, even for the worst of sinners.(16)

chosemyshem wrote on 28 Jun 2024 15:16:

Ditto on last Friday. No masturbation again. But spent at least three hours filter poking obsessively. Feels gross. Came home very late (for a Friday) and my wife was annoyed. Lied and said I was trying to finish a work project. Meanwhile I had rushed through and did the minimum on that project and it really came back to bite me Monday.

Wasn't any urges or reasons. And I feel like once I start the filter poking it's so hard to stop.

Bleah.

chosemyshem wrote on 09 Jul 2024 15:38:

Was thinking about the filter poking issue. And had a good schmooze with a chashuve member here yesterday that really drove home that there's an easy way to set a geder to deter myself from this. All I need to do is switch the email that gets the Techloq notifications of allowed sites to my wife's email. She does theoretically have access to my email that the notifications go to, and I know she looks at it sometimes (not in a snooping way (I hope) but because alot of notifications go to it). But it doesn't deter me because I just delete them before she sees them. So if I switch it to an email that she has on her phone I would not be able to delete the notifications before she sees them and she would see all my filter poking.

Obviously this wouldn't "solve" my problems. But it's an easy-but-powerful barrier to set up. And it think it would give me alot of space to do the inner work.

But I'm feeling a lot of internal resistance to doing this.

1) She'd realize something is up.
2) What if I theoretically need to chat with Techloq about something and don't have access to that email.
3) I don't know if I can switch my work filter to her email.
4) What if I slip up and she sees me allowing something sketchy.
5) What if this stops me being able to indulge in my favorite habit.
6) What if it doesn't stop me and I go buy an unfiltered device or something instead.

Number one is the only claim with any legitimacy. But I'm still feeling alot of resistance.

Any eitzos? Does anyone know if it's possible to add an email to techloq to just receive the notifications but not manage the account? Then I could add a GYE chaver to get the notifications.

chosemyshem wrote on 10 Jul 2024 13:32:

So I just took the initiative and called Techloq. You absolutely can set it that the notifications for APPROVALS  go to another  email address. Rejections and billing emails would still go to the email on file.
The way to do it is to send them an email with all the pertinent information and they can set  it up for you.

You can do this.
To paraphrase Neil Armatrong - One small step for man , one giant step for your humanity! 

You are on the right track. Change is hard and resistance is normal (mr YH doesn't give ground freely). 
I have a similar way of getting lost in trying to repair things, sinking hours into it because it's hard to stop once I've begun. 
In this vein, I would venture to say that #6 won't be an issue, as you seem to have a hard time stopping, but not looking to deliberately start. 

As far as inner work, you're setting up a first line of defense which is the deterrent. Up next is figuring out what works for you if you find yourself needing to interrupt once you've begun (any behavior, not specifically the filter poking).

• Did you hear the story of the half-eaten cake?
• Sunk cost fallacy (though not exactly). Just because you've already done x amount doesn't mean you might as well keep going. Don't be meyayeish.
• Make a habit of having a chizuk that works for you at the ready and pull it out. I say "shivisi Hashem". What transpired already happened - it's done. What I do next matters. If I can stop now, I will feel strong. If you succeed in stopping, smile.

Hatzlacha

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:06:

I heard half the story

redfaced wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:09:

Exactly!
The guy who can do it all, that is nice.
They guy who it's hard to do it at all, but he at least does half, that is the work.

One of my Rabbeim says he actually doesn't mind if baalei battim fall asleep during his night shiur. He thinks: this guy is so tired and he'd rather be home sleeping but he is being mesiras nefesh to at least try and he comes to learn Torah.

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:06:

I also have a hard time not starting. I'm somewhat better about setting myself up for success not in the heat of the moment. If that makes sense.

I heard the story about the half eaten cake and strongly disagree with it. (It's great chizuk for shmiras einayim. Totally bogus for someone with a real lust problem.)
It's not a sunk cost fallacy issue. I just can't stop sometimes.

chosemyshem wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:14:

I feel like this came up before. Can you elaborate on what you mean by lust? 

If a guy is halfway through masturbating and has a pause, he can feel like I'm already doing it and I'm already bad, so might as well keep going because the train left the station. This is NOT TRUE. It is not the way Hashem sees it. I'm struggling to understand why lust would be an exception to this.

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:25:

Sure. Always happy to elaborate. 

The point of the cake story is that Hashem appreciates every mitzvah, every attempt to become close with him. And even if it's not possible for you to be perfect, even if you're mostly imperfect, you can still try to come close to Hashem and he will appreciate the actions and the intention. This is both true and beautiful. It is gevalidg chizuk for your average man who wants to be close to Hashem but is normal and finds it difficult to not see the women on the street (or even has a taivah to watch porn or masturbate every now and then). For him, it is important to hear that he just has to give it his best shot and try to come close to Hashem and Hashem will love him regardless.
Many guys on GYE fall into this category.

However, many (more?) guys on GYE fall into another category. These are guys who have developed a more advanced lust problem. For them, hearing "just do your best and Hashem will love you" is not just sheker, it's unhelpful. Yes, just one time stopping/staying away is still a beautiful thing and Hashem still loves you. But these guys have like, an actual problem. Being shomer their eyes half the time in the street doesn't mean they have half a cake, it means they still have a whole problem. A better metaphor would be that they have half a heart. Yes it's better than no heart, but you're still dead. 

It's not about freaking cake. It's about loving some imaginary woman more than you love your wife. It's about prioritizing porn and masturbation over your life. And holding back one time (or ten times, or for ninety days) is a mitzva, but it's not fixing their screwed up lives. 

Not just for the theoretical "true addict". (For addicts it's even worse than that. For them, the cake story enables them to keep on lying to themselves and helps them continue. But that's a Dov schmooze.) I'm talking about the non-addicts. The guys chronically masturbating (before/after/instead of being with their wife), staying late at work to watch porn, developing online relationships with women, binging, or whatever. They have a problem and half a piece of cake is not solving it.

If the holding back is done as a part of a process of changing their life then it's a totally different picture. Then stopping even one time is part of a real solution. And an important part of really solving the problem may well be seeing the value in every time you hold back. But that's not what the cake story is about.