שבע יפול צדיק וקם wrote on 21 Jun 2024 01:56:

You know it's very "weird" to see frum people that struggle with that, it's frightening and also makes me feel normal. I dont look at my life and how I wish it will be the same way as I did, thanks to all the wonderful people here

ShtettlMan wrote on 21 Jun 2024 14:28:

Ya know what, since this is my thread Imma run with this. Disclaimer: everything below can be safely ignored.

That bolded line is real, true emes. Let me break it down.

It is very weird to see frum people struggle with this. Because we're doing weird stuff, man. Is it freaking normal that when I'm stressed at work I soothe myself by watching naked women jump around? Is it normal for someone to not be able to go more than a few days without having sex with himself? Is it normal for someone to compulsively eye-grope every single woman he sees? No. It's weird. We wouldn't do it in front of our wives, we wouldn't do it in front of our family, we wouldn't do it in front of our friends (hopefully). It's a dirty little secret we hide because it's just so weird.
It's not weird because we're frum. You think it's normal behavior for any person to plan when he's going to be alone at home so he can fress on porn? No. It's just weird. (Inspired by Dov. Note that non-addicts are probably slightly less weird about it.)

It's frightening.
Why is it frightening? You're scared of other people watching porn? They ain't gonna hurt you.
I'll take a stab at why you think it's frightening. It's scary for two reasons. The main reason is because until now you yourself were not in pain from this little "struggle." Maybe you were in religious pain, that you think you are doing something assur and you want to stop. But you weren't in pain. Now you see that this road you're walking on leads to pain. Real pain, pain you feel in every limb of your body. And that's scary. That's really frightening. 
The other reason it's frightening goes back to it being frum people on here. There's a realization that the facade of frum society is just a facade. That people with long beards and frock coats leave their gemara at the end of a seder, and before going home to be mechanech their heilege kinder, take a quick pit stop in the yeshiva bathroom to masturbate. Or after a lichtege shabbos that chashuve bal habos tells his wife he's going to learn but goes to meet his mistress. 
This specific sin we somehow view as worse than other sins. And it's so secret and dirty and prevalent. That realization rips at the foundations of what we've believed Judaism is. 
(I think this is a mistaken feeling. But a natural one). 

And it makes you feel normal.
This is good and bad. It's good because you should not feel dirty and unnatural. Because you're not. You're an normal person, and Hashem likes you. This is a chiddush because before coming to GYE you felt like dirt. 
It's bad because the stuff we're doing is not normal. It's weird. And it's easy to justify because the world is wallowing in it now. So it's important to remember that it is not normal. 

Holy hell..... im shivering now. 

I blame you in advance for the fears i will have because of this........................ 

HOW DO I KNOW I WONT BECOME THIS MONSTER???

Good morning checking in: Still alive b"h.

Had a great schmooze with the legendary hall-of-famer Iwannalivereal. One nekuda he pointed out really got me thinking. 

The basic issue for many people on here is like this. We like porn/masturbation/other inappropriate sexual behavior. We like it a LOT. We clearly like it a lot, since we've been prioritizing it at the expense of other important things for a long time. And it's not like we don't intellectually "know" it's something we shouldn't be doing, since we've been trying to stop generally since the day we started.
So what's going to change that's going to stop us doing something we enjoy so much?

[For some people, it's enough to just sign onto GYE or have a quick schmooze with HHM and get a wake up call of the dangers + learn that it's [u]possible [/u]to stop. Add a drop of accountability (either with someone else or via the 90 chart) and that's enough for them to break the habit. Be'etzem, for someone like that, it's probably that their porn use was not so ingrained - not something they loved so deeply. But how is someone who's so deep into loving lust supposed to just flip a switch and stop loving it?]

One approach (advocated by iwannalivereal, proudyungerman, and others) is apparently laid out in the Battle of the Generation. And the basic yesod is that "winning" against that urge to indulge in this lust that we love so much is inherently more pleasurable than indulging. So if someone works hard to feel that pleasure, than they won't be faced with a choice of doing something they love or not doing that thing. They'll be faced with doing something extremely pleasurable, or doing something that is even more pleasurable. And that's not a terribly hard choice. 

Interestingly enough, SA has the exact opposite approach (I don't know much about SA, just going off some recordings from Dov in the GYE library so if I'm wrong please let me know.) They say that we love lust even more than we love overcoming lust. That after fighting for so long we've determined that lust is the most important thing in the world to us, and we won't give it up even for the pleasure of overcoming lust. And so then the only possible sane decision is to stop fighting and to ask Hashem to take us out of the fight. 

[Note: both approaches require additional elements such as honesty and connecting to other fighters/addicts. But in this one crucial nekuda - how to deal with our overpowering love of lust - these two fundamental approaches are polar opposites.
I'm not explaining the secret to getting clean. For all I know, the secret to getting clean is to have a righteous dead grandfather. Just thinking out loud about this point.]

And so but there I was driving to work this morning and on the side of the road was a sight to really chap an eyeful of (sorry for the objectification). I shouted in my head "Don't you dare look!" and by the time I finished shouting that I was past her. It's interesting I had that reaction though, because I was thinking about the rest of this post at that very time and didn't use either approach. . .

Shem, I always love and appreciate reading your thought-provoking posts!

.

“Winning” is a lifetime goal, while giving into an urge is instant gratification—that usually dissipates as soon as we wake up from the session, an indicator that the YH was really pushing us all along, as he ducks out as soon as he’s accomplished his task. I don’t think you meant it this way, but just want to clarify that it can still be a terribly hard choice. If I’m on a diet, and my urge to be healthy is greater than my urge to eat whatever I want, I’m still prone to struggle when my favorite desert comes out and I have a strong craving for that short-lived pleasure, even though it is anti my real long-term desire.

.

For me it’s not so much about winning, it’s about self-worth and not losing. Arguably one might say it’s the same, but to me there is a world of difference. My motivation (for better or worse) is not from the idea of shechting the YH and catapulting his head back over the walls into geheinom. It’s about standing strong and true to myself in a way that he has no power over me. I don’t derive nearly as much pleasure from beating the YH as I do from the thought that he won’t beat me.

.

When YH rears his ugly head, I don’t square up and go in for a knockout punch. I try to keep moving along as if he’s net even worth the time of day. I fear what will happen to me if I disappoint myself. I don’t really care what condition he ends up in, no matter what, I can’t be down there because of him ever again.

.

Of course I feel good about winning, and that is very important, but I dislike losing to him even more. I’m not fighting him, nor running away from him; I’m holding myself above him.

.

I think I confused myself at this point. Sorry for the rambling on your thread. Hopefully what I’m trying to convey is in there somewhere. Maybe someone will be kind enough to help me pull it out with better clarity. All the new summer schedules have addled my poor brain.
Kol tov!

BenHashemBH wrote on 26 Jun 2024 16:34:

I'm not the baal hash*ta here, so idk if I can explain it more than I did before. But yes, short-term v. long-term pleasure I'm going to go for short-term 80% of the time. But the pleasure right now from winning, if you can find it, is greater in the short term too. 
Now, how to define winning is a good question. And maybe someone who's practiced this can preach it for us?

But I think what you're saying about self-worth may be the "winning". Could be smacking down the YH and not taking this one look, opening this one porn website, whatever is a mitzvah and a good thing. But winning is the feeling of being someone who chooses life. TBOTG has a long bit on how "not losing" is really winning. Ayin shum haytiv and then explain it to me please

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Jun 2024 16:53:

Lo Amus Ki Echyeh 

Just wanna share a win.

Was just randomly feeling an urge. Not the type of urge like "I want to watch porn but I must fight." The type of urge like "I just want to watch porn and don't care about fighting." Actually started browsing some images. I didn't care to fight. This flavor of urge has historically been disastrous for me.
Anyway, for the very first time reached out during a serious urge. Texted then spoke to my accountability partner. And somehow didn't fall.

Also davened a little, but I've often done that during an urge with very iffy results. Tried a new tefillah though: "Hashem, I wish I could give you this lust as a korban. But I can't, it's too precious to me. Please Hashem take it anyway."

Not getting optimistic bc when has that ever ended well. But trying to enjoy the feeling of not having fallen.

Chooseurname wrote on 23 Oct 2023 19:52:

Huh. Only took since sukkos for this attitude to rotate a complete 180. Wow. Peer pressure is real lol 

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Jun 2024 20:30:

Baruch Hashem! Kinas Sofrim is a wonderful thing!

Perhaps you can share what your experiences opening up and meeting people were like so hopefully others can learn from you...
(Hey y'all! You can also just reach out straight. I won't bite, I promise you! proudyungerman@gmail.com or if you're ready or even if you think you're not  406-298-3647)

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Jun 2024 20:30:

Wow….. I’m super proud to know you, respect you, and imyh become a close friend of yours. Your persistence is remarkable, your willingness to keep trucking and pushing along astounding……

with much admiration,
Muttel

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Jun 2024 19:49:

Gonna be honest and share the L as well.

Had a fall yesterday. Felt overwhelmed at work so escaped to porn. Didn't reach out, didn't urge surf, didn't do nothing.

Was saved by the filter from any "hard" stuff, but it's kinda stupid to get hung up on some arbitrary line when I spent something like three hours feeling completely out of control while I poked at the filter.
(Not negating the value of a filter, and I'm happy about what I didn't see. It's definitely making today easier. But the the bigger issue is the lack of control and that was a complete loss. I know someone's gonna jump on this and say I'm wrong and it was a win bc I put on a filter and it saved me. This is incorrect. In shomayim I'm sure I'll get some schar for it, and I'm all for celebrating small or partial wins. But I was sitting for three hours lusting out of control. I don't really care if specific acts didn't appear on the screen, or I only saw this body part and not that one during that time. The lust is the real problem, not what specific content the lust pulls up. And with the lust, there was no win at all.)

Oy. I think I have like half of a real procrastination problem and 3/4 of a porn problem and they combine to form something nasty. Or maybe I'm lying to myself about what the problems are in order to avoid confronting either problem. Idk. 

That's all very negative so let me find something positive to say . . .       . . .               . . .

I haven't masturbated in a month, but until I see real change I'm again inclined to say that's a superficial win that's gonna be washed away by my lack of control.
Have been having much more long term success controlling fantasies.
Been connecting with people. Trying to build like, actual relationships, and not just talk to people once.


Meh.

Here's a caring heart and warm feelings for your difficult situation, boy do I know what that roller coaster feels like.....

I can't say much other than you're a real trooper and an inspiration in brutal honesty and ehrlichkeit.

I hope you rebound and use this fall as a means to grow...

With much love and admiration (and a hug),
Muttel

Checking in.

Stuck doing work on a Sunday. The worst part is I procrastinated on work last week (especially Thursday while acting out) and I was going to catch up today. Then I got stuck with a new assignment to finish today so idk when I'm going to catch up on the other stuff.
Not feeling tempted to escape to porn at least. I'm too overworked to escape.

Shabbos was nice, and also clean (okay mostly, except for one block where there was a woman walking right in front of me with just the right flavor of dress and I couldn't look away. But just one block.)

chosemyshem wrote on 30 Jun 2024 21:27:

And I really wasn't tempted to escape to porn. But I noticed myself doing this really weird thing of poking at things I know don't get around the filter. I think it's like the guy who quit smoking but sucks on his pen. Just an extremely weird comforting reflex. (Or maybe I'm scared to go to porn because I know the pain, but I'm desperately hoping somehow porn will come to me?)

It's interesting. I've had an unfiltered device sitting around for the last few months and I haven't fallen with it. I haven't gone on it, because I know if I do I'll fall with it. But idk how I've managed to avoid it. Really would like to be able to extrapolate whatever is working there to other areas. But trying not to think about it too much because if it gets in my head I'll end up using it. (Could be it's simply that I'm rarely alone with it. And I tell myself I've forgotten the password.)

It's just kinda weird to me that I can set a line of not using that device for months, but will spend three hours e.g. looking at women's clothing websites for a bit of skin the image filter doesn't block. 

Would like to be honest with myself about how bad of a problem I have. (Is it really procrastination or really porn, how bad is the porn habit, do I really want to stop). But it's tough. There's a lot of negiyus and I honestly don't know myself very well. Oh well.