Mesayin wrote on 26 Aug 2022 15:18:

Exactly what the Ohr Hachaim says in his famous piece in Parshas Acharei Mos:

"And if one should ask, "How can a natural person be in control of his desires which "force" him to act? After all, it does not make sense that Hashem would obligate all men equally to guard themselves in this area, only people who can stand up and have the will power to deny this desire! And these are people who never came into the tests of seeing improper sights and thinking lustful thoughts. Only for such people did the Torah command these Mitzvos. But for people who already fell into these things, it is naturally impossible for a man to control himself and hold back from this craving that forces him to act!"
To counter this claim, Hashem wrote in the Torah with pleasant words of life, and the Parsha of Arayos starts out with the words "Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them, I am Hashem your G-d". For it is true that in the human race, besides for the Jewish people, they can claim this complaint and say that they did not find it in their strength to deny the power of this intense desire from themselves. However, with you, the Children of Israel, because I am Hashem your G-d - that is, you can achieve understanding and awareness of G-d - and through this G-dly strength, you will win over the natural physical drives."

Libido is just another word for desire.  It is not proof of a physical need. It is proof of a physical desire.  These physical desires can be avoided and waited out until the time that the desires can be appropriately channeled towards an intimate relationship.  

until that relationship happens a person can calm his desires by accepting them and moving on.  That is perfectly healthy and there will not be any dam that explodes.   

Obviously this can be a challenge or a lot of us would not be here.  However as I said before I do believe that maintaining the belief that there is an inherent physical need for sexual activity (and that without it the dam will burst) actually adds to the challenge and frustration.  If one could accept the view that from a physical standpoint sexual release is not necessary for a healthy physical life it will be much easier to calm those desires and move on from them when they are inappropriate. 

When someone believes that a healthy body needs to have sexual release, what motivation or willpower can possibly overcome that inherent need?

Ok I think I have not been clear about something else. When I say you you need a physical release I mean you need to have an outlet, preferably a creative one. I.e. work out, paint, read or ideally learn.

After thinking about my discussions with the folks here, I will correct what I have said previously, it is not a need like eating or sleeping. It is a build up of energy which needs a direction. .

From my own anecdotal point of view, when I have felt that pressure and ended up masturbating or watching porn it never felt physically good after. But I did once feel that pressure and went and tried a painting tutorial, the feedback loop was only positive. I still have that need in my mind.

However, I do think physical intimacy and closeness is important for a healthy life. We need close contact as humans, and yes masturbation does not fill that void. Marriage does and to an extent having friends does too. 

Fact - there are many single guys who watched pornography and masturbated for a number of years and then stopped completely. Similarly, there are married fellows that have sexless marriages for extended periods of time due to various issues, and also stay clean.  It is important for guys to know that this is possible.

You are mixing facts with anecdotal. Just because some individuals can go without having sexual activity does not mean all individuals can or should.

What I'm trying to understand is why there is a level of discouragement going regarding the pursuit of a physical relationship. 

Just because pornography exists doesn't condemn physical intimacy. 

Also people go long periods of time without exercise, they don't necessarily need to exercise, but they still should because its healthy. This idea of denying that we should want or have a physical relationship is really odd to me and not something I intend to subscribe to. It's borderline christian.

Can you clarify? I don't think you and HHM are necessarily arguing. I think HHM agrees that if someone feels pent up sexual energy that they should find ways to divert  it through exercise and so forth.

I do agree though with the notion of the "wave" that people refer to here, though I think that's more challenging for guys who aren't in a marital relationship.

Can you clarify your point about the physical intimacy in the context of a sexless marriage or as a single guy? What is the nafka mina if there's no physical intimacy for a long period of time? Will they start molesting little boys? Does having friends address the issue?

supremeone wrote on 30 Aug 2022 07:44:

where did you see the discouragement of a (healthy) physical relationship?

where did you see the idea of denying the desire to have a (healthy) physical relationship?

supremeone wrote on 30 Aug 2022 07:44:

The Rambam says that a man should sit a learn and not get married. However, if he feels that his Yetzer Harah will disturb him, he should get married first.

So I guess it's yesh v'yesh.

I don't think this physical need/want is really comparable to other physical needs, being that this physical need is "The more you feed it, the more you need it". So it's sometimes hard to distinguish between the actual physical need and the illusional physical need that comes from indulgence.

I believe : 
There is Physical need that is related to emotional need and connection with  another person. There is also a physical need that is purely physical based on habit. The fact that when one develops an emotional bond and intimate relationship with a spouse, a physical desire and need develops. this is  normal and intended in the briya. There can also be a physical need that develops internally. This develops by the dopamine hormones in the brain that experience pleasure and gets used to it. This can happen if one participates in pleasurable activity, the more one views or acts the more the brain craves the dopamine. This need is not beneficial in and of itself. This is merely satisfying ones Taavah, it is spiritually unhealthy and potentially physically dangerous. 

Kavey, Vehkam, Mesayin, and Qualitystuff - thank you for explaining and elaborating on what i had written. You are all spot on.

Hi supremeone. You are obviously quite intelligent and a deep-thinker. Thank you for bringing up this intriguing topic. I would like to weigh in on some things you said.

"To clarify, the answer to physical needs is physical intimacy."
Physical intimacy, when done in a Kosher manner, can definitely satisfy physical needs. But what about all the people who don't have access to such intimacy, such as bachelors, or husbands whose wives are Niddahs from menstruation or childbirth? Your words imply that there is no way for their needs to be fulfilled. I believe that is incorrect. As many people have already pointed out, there are no adverse effects from letting these urges pass.

"I am not sure if the human body can function without physical sexual activity."
Here you seem to state explicitly that the lack of sexual activity is harmful, and can even prevent the body from functioning. To say that singles not engaging in sexual activity is harmful is against the Torah. Hashem wouldn't command people to harm their bodies. We don't believe in self-flagellation. And the idea that the body can't function without sexual activity is patently untrue. No one ever dropped dead from not masturbating.

"And repression of your physical wants leads down a dark place as shown by the catholic church and their vows of celibacy."
As a wise man once said, "you are mixing facts with anecdotal (sic)." The immoral activities of some priests who probably weren't the most moral dudes to begin with in no way proves that lack of sexual activity is harmful. This is a hasty generalization. 

"Just because some individuals can go without having sexual activity does not mean all individuals can or should."
Excuse my bluntness, but people who are not in a position to have Kosher sexual activity should not engage in sexual activity. They can, and should abstain from such things. It's definitely not easy, but we are discussing ideals here. Hashem Help Me was just trying to point out that it's possible to abstain from non-Kosher sexual activity. 

hashemyeracheim613 wrote on 02 Sep 2022 04:55:

I believe Supermeone agrees with all points here.

I think to summarize, a person CAN go through life in celibacy and function properly, but it is definitely extremely hard.

We do see from Chazal that a wife helps a person to not sin (key word HELPS). Also, our Rabbis recommended getting married as early as possible for this reason. But a person CAN go through life with out it.

IMO, this doesn't apply to addicts though because to an addict, it really doesn't matter if they are married or single.

I'm not sure if he agrees or not. These quotes from his posts would seem to suggest otherwise. Looking forward to hear his take on the matter.

Hey guys, sorry I've got an exam coming up so I haven't had time to respond properly. Also had a slip (too much pressure). Will respond later this week. 

Whats going on?