cordnoy wrote on 22 Oct 2018 23:38:

It certainly doesn't bother me if it's not clear. You have a right to feel or think whatever you want

I meant that she is really needy. At 10 pm she'll develop a desire for this or that and I'll get dressed and get it for her, maybe cook a whole meal.

And in the one area where I have a need she doesn't give because it's shameful for her.

Tonight I thought that I cannot be a yore shamaym in this area if my wife isn't as well. But if it hurts her I have pity on her. So I thought that maybe in order to be yore shamaym in this area too I cannot have pity on her. And there are other areas where too much mercy can harm people, as in raising kids.

So I told her that maybe by backing down I'm doing the wrong thing. For some reason she went along with it. I was very gentle, it still hurt like crazy, and it was hugely satisfying for me.

I found her a movie to watch because I know what she likes and got her something yummy to eat.

mzl wrote on 23 Oct 2018 00:14:

Now I'm confused. Shameful or painful?

Hakolhevel wrote on 23 Oct 2018 15:00:

Her mind doesn't go there because she thinks it's bad news. So she is never in the mood, and then it hurts.

I think the other day I saw some good data about in person meetings. I had an urge to act out all morning, for various reasons, but then I started arranging an in person meeting with someone from GYE, and when it was getting really close I thought I felt the urge disappear. Then the meeting didn't happen, and the urge came back.

I think it makes sense that even if you have no shame left, but still talking about problems is a normal human activity, and if you have a topic in your brain that you never verbalize to anyone the brain probably should draw conclusions about it, it makes you a bad person, which means that if you like it it "must" be an irresistible desire.

I think in my case it was probably just the accountability aspect, it's hard to meet someone to talk about this topic and continue thinking about acting out in the back of your mind.

I thought it was interesting.

My wife figured out that she has a medical
issue that can be fixed with a one-time medicine.

Go figure.

I think I need to edit my writing to insert missing logical steps. I am sure that a lot of people read my writing and wonder how I get to certain conclusions. I think I trained myself to skip steps as a way of saying "this is obvious, everybody knows this, and if you are smart you will know this too." I found a tool to treat my bipolar disorder and this is connected and I don't need this obfuscation behavior any more. I can be worthwhile for other reasons.

The reason they are connected is that I constantly minimize everything. Since every step is of minimal importance, there is no need to explain it. The problem is that the step is not at all obvious or small.

I think a good starting point is to list assumptions and logical steps in bullet-like form, so at least the reader understands my thought process. This will probably go a long way towards preventing users from concluding "he wrote that because he's an a-hole" or "he makes personal attacks on people" etc.

I know I am bipolar because I read a lot about depression and I found a tool that helps me. Since I started using the tool the mood swings are gone. Once I stopped using the tool the depression came back. I think this shows cause and effect. And the tool itself forces me to acknowledge that the things I do are not worth zero.

The reader might wonder why I am not explaining what the tool is. The answer is that talking about things like that can let the air out of the tires. It shouldn't, but I can't risk it. It took me thirty years to find this tool.

So, have you ever gotten a professional assessment of the diagnosis: bipolar?

Dov wrote on 23 Oct 2018 21:15:

I had a therapist many years ago who mentioned bipolar to me but I didn't ask for more details (I was young so it didn't matter too much.) Many years later I had another therapist who treated me for depression (well, he tried.) He never mentioned it, but he did say I was achievement motivated.

I don't mean Bipolar I, rather Bipolar II. Bipolar I people usually end up on medication. But I was afraid to end up bipolar I until I found my little tool. I had some really close calls. Scary highs followed by horrible lows.

Depression sucks.

I think I understood that people really get me angry when they underestimate me. This is also tied to my bipolar II issue. It happens regularly. I think that explains why I go deconstruct people afterwards, because it shows them that their motivation is really about their sense of self worth. For example: I'm worthwhile iff I do a perfect job, or iff I am an expert, or iff I work hard etc

But you can't show people how their particular self worth works if they are not trained in cognitive theory. They go ballistic because they  suddenly realize that they view themselves as intrinsically worthless and they don't understand that they really have no idea what they are really worth. So there's no reason to be upset since they are wrong about their worth.

mzl wrote on 23 Oct 2018 21:47:

MZL,

It’s me again. So I’m a little confused- you had depression or bipolar? 

And I really relate to what you wrote about laying out the missing steps. I’ve been feeling that there must be some missing steps, and I do think if you would outline them, people would probably react differently. 

mzl wrote on 21 Oct 2018 19:58:

Especially interesting now, since you haven't a diagnosis of bipolar - even tho you've been to professionals. You can revisit some of what I wrote to you before privately in a new light, now. Or you can react as though it's all a big 'challenge of wits'. I don't really care because my only objective is to help, not to be right.

One day you might also open up about what you are imagining our cultural differences are. It's easy to guess, but hard to be real. I thank G-d that so many people in recovery open up and get real, and that our forum - fake names and all - has been an amazing stepping stone out of the pretend world we create for ourselves in isolation, into a real world that is much, much better. Along the way I get to meet fellow travelers like you who I bet are more like me and others than you are different.

It's ok to be another guy on the bus. We all have problems here.

Workingguy wrote on 24 Oct 2018 02:51:

Bipolar disorder includes depressive periods. First the brain searches for some activity that it can misinterpret as proof that you're especially worthy. Then when that gets old, so to speak, then depression hits, the brain starts misinterpreting reality to mean you're worthless. Highs and lows.

Dov wrote on 24 Oct 2018 03:43:

I still think that whenever your comments fall flat with me you react by saying that I'm not understanding you properly. And once again, you are second guessing my bipolar disorder. Once again you are saying that I need to adjust in order to see how helpful your help really is.

I think I should address something that bothers Dov a lot, namely that I make observations about how people think, which he would describe as "attacking their personalities."

This is an area where, as I already stated, we have cultural differences. Where I'm coming from is that improvement comes from accurately understanding how my brain thinks. Therefore for me progress is all about personality. Therefore in order to talk to someone about my or their problems, most of the words said have to be about how I and they think. But I also know that how the brain thinks can change if the right tool is available.

This is horrible for someone who thinks that how someone thinks can never be controlled, and that it can probably never even be known. And even in medicine and other sciences there are lots of things that we know happen but we don't know why they happen. Thinking about internal mechanisms can even seen to be dangerous in so far as it prevents you from going down a more productive path. I think this is why Dov refers to analysis as "convolution."

I think it's pretty clear that once you give up on understanding though, especially where you find a set of behaviors that are effective, that is all you will ever know about that topic. That means that helping others will be a matter of selection rather than analysis: you keep looking for the people that mesh with your way of looking at the world, and skip over the rest.

Whereas my approach is to ask a lot of questions because I think each person needs to be understood first, and fixed later - maybe. But in my experience when analysis is done correctly and good tools are available it can do very well.

I would characterize this as a major cultural difference.