I wish they would have helped me. But now I must be honest. Mussar wasn't affecting me. I could read and read. And live in my sense of falseness for longer. But I want to snap out of it.

Also 12 steps is not mutually exclusive to mussar.

Step 1 - The Yetzer Hora cannot be beaten by normal means
Step 2 - Only Hashem can Help
Step 3 - Do things l'Shem Shamayim
Step 4 - Cheshbon HaNefesh
Step 5 - Vidui

You get my drift. I found Rav Twerski's "Teshuva Through Recovery" a good read. 

This, I think, might be why. A brief discourse. And I stand to be heavily corrected.

Say your regular mussar shiur. You sit around a table with a rov and he reads from Mesillas Yesharim. He discusses the part about abstaining from evil and gives the proofs the Ramchal uses. 

And some guys nod, and you hear an "mmm-hmmmm" here and there.

Will you ever hear someone pipe up, "Wow, Rov, you know I really need to consider this before I type in the address to that porn site again"?

We hear concepts but fail to apply them. There's no connection. Because maybe there's no allowance for such a connection in the shiur. Maybe for like, fluffy concepts. "Oh, I'll bring in Shabbos 5 minutes earlier. That's what I've gained from this".

But if you're into hardcore stuff, you need a forum for greater honesty. 

The 12 step meetings are a forum for honesty. That's it. You disclose it all. Gradually maybe, but there they are. They're a koach beyond what I've seen in mussar shiurim. But I don't think that's a failing in mussar. It's a failing in how we treat these issues. Under the rug.

IIt's all talk that I understand. But in my opinion as I get older and this struggle is still here I find myself not turning for chizuk but to actually start doing and living what they say! We all make the chizuk mistake it's when we start realizing that hey something is not right here! Chizuk is the same like chizik (joke) do you think we have tzadikim for chizuk?? We have tzadikim to show us how to live and to emulate them. That the hard part my friends, we were brought up with all these books but in the wrong way! 

YYou guys need to get involved in some chasidus ☺
i get the mesilas yesorim thing☺

SStart learning all chasidus like the 12 steps with your friends that you trust .
then we can talk☺

tiger wrote on 13 Feb 2017 15:05:


2 things
1) True tzadikim show us how to live and we need to emulate them but yes they are there for chizuk too
2) Maybe we were brought up the wrong way maybe not (everyone has a different upbringing) but like Singularity said R' Twersky's book is a good read and actually talks about this a little there it is a good idea to try to read it 

MayanHamisgaber wrote on 16 Feb 2017 22:34:

Yeah. Just donate to GYE

Yes tzadikim definitely are here to be mechazik us,but the problem is when you only use them for chizuk for a sweet little boost but at the same time WE don't take what they say seriously,we tend to question them and not trust in what they are saying.we think it's nice Torah ah sheina vort a nice idea but we don't realize that when they said that without hashem we are nothing we say wow that's so nice.....But what does it mean? When will we go in the way of these holy people and realize that they where showing us the way?

Again I am talking to myself here

I know that this talk offends some people and that is not my intention at all, personally this is my struggle

OOn this thread I will point out when I have time to write what I mean that if we would follow them we would have a way out of this mess. Whoever does not appriciate this talk does not have to read this. 

i want to believe that there are some guys that would appriciate it.

While at he same time I hope to share my daily struggles 

Just left work. I have a really hard time controlling my eyes in the streets but as I was leaving work and driving through the streets of the town I work in I thank god had strength to control my eyes and say to myself what you are about to see is not good for you. These Days I am working on rewiring my mind  which obviously till now I was thinking that this is what I like to see i enjoy to see this, right now I'm working on saying no this is not good for me.

how am I doing it? I try talking to hashem every day and one of the things I talk about is that he says lusting and not watching your eyes can take you out of this world couse it's not good for you!So I spend a few min a day talking to hashem that he should give me the strength to realize that lusting is terrible for me unlike now that I think it's just a fun thing to do

This is great!
Its not easy to look down and sideways after a lifetime of the opposite.
Every day it becomes more programmed.
You should be matzliach!

I agree 100% that we need to believe that seforim hakdoshim are true. And if we were following the mesillas yesharim to the point where we were able to do techiyas hamesim, we likely wouldn't be in this struggle.

Personally, I don't want to wait that long until I stop acting out. I want to stop now, because it's ruining my life. And I'll do whatever it takes. And I bet that if I asked Rav Nachman, or any mechaber seforim of that caliber, they would say exactly the same thing.

Of course, if following the seforim helps you stop, then you don't need anything further...but since you're here, it's possible that the seforim HAVEN'T helped. So maybe this isn't a question of a nisayon, but of a disease. And for every other disease, you go to the doctor and follow his advice.

This past week the meor enayim parshas yisro says something fascinating,

He is talking to someone who finds himself falling and does not have the state of mind and clarity to stay connected to hashem, what are you supposed to do???

Most of us feel when we are at a point of a fall that right now we are not connected to hashem, listen to what the meor anayim says!!!

"When a person finds himself falling instead of being a shota and saying, hey listen, right now I fell and I am staying here, instead the meor anayim says NO don't be stupid instead say to yourself in middle of all your junk and feelings of wanting to fall and not being able to say NO ,say to yourself who is giving me the strength to breath and live now??? Hashem is.. and by doing that you are never losing the connection to hashem.

I have heard that this is from the yosodoes in yiddishkiet, he is teaching us how to never lose hashem.

This is not nice Torah this is a way of life.

tiger wrote on 19 Feb 2017 18:25:

Very nice. It's a wonderful way of life. Just don't let it tip into this territory: