I don't have a sha"ch al hatorah, so I can't see it inside, but I was busy anyway trying to look up what "eved Hashem" means.
Not to c"v downplay anyone else's accomplishments and nisyonos, but it seems a little excessive to give me the ultimate praise, which Moshe Rabbeinu received at the end of his life, just for not masturbating for two weeks. Just thinking aloud. Oops. There I go thinking again.
DOV

How true. Sigh.
If I sound a little down, which, oddly, I am not, it's because of how close I came to giving it up on at least three occasions. And then I get into the vicious cycle of thinking. But, miraculously, I still lived to report another clean day. Kein Yirbu.

Very nice quote.

I'm coming around to a new understanding of this 'thinking' thing, though practically, Cordnoy's mehalech speaks to me.

It seems to me that the vast majority of gye 'thinking' conversations are really people working through issues in their heart out loud. Or better yet, a form of 'resistance' to take that next big step when in their heart they know the truth (ie. That it's sensible to try what many say works instead of all the philosophical talk).

And so often, it leads to their coming around, and taking that next BIG step. (Of course with a little help from the anti thinkers! :-) )

So KOT! (keep on thinking)

When I first started on GYE I was thinking alot and resented everyone telling me not to think too much. I have thought through most areas where I have worked on myself over the years.
Eventually I came to understand what everyone was saying about not thinking too much.
I do believe that most people have to think a bit until they come to the understanding that the thinking won't help them get out of their problem. So I agree that it is a process, but not necessarily avoiding getting to the next stage. It is for me the process of getting to the next stage.
I still think sometimes but only when I take a step back. In the day to day struggles I try not to think. (Actually it is not so hard to not think, I am usually too busy or unsettled to think)

Great stuff!!

It also goes together with what Dov says "It's the same head that get us into the problem, so it can't be expected to get us out of the problem"

I have found that insights that I get only come after taking action and staying sober. All the information that I had beforehand didn't help, it just wasn't adding up to staying clean, I was obviously missing something, and that something wasn't "thinking" for I had plenty of that. Only after staying clean did I find how the equation worked (somewhat like algebra 1+a=2, whereas if I only had 1+a=b then there is nothing there). After the insights came and the things that other's had told me sank in, I now have a more complete picture.

KOMT!!! KOP!!!

my thoughts on thinking.
if the thinking is just rehashing old stuff it is not so constructive.
although without thinking, it is hard to understand how anyone can get anywhere.
thinking can get you out of a problem, provided it can be followed up with some kind of action.
honest thinking is critical- it will make all the difference, whereas justifing is very dangerous.
but sometimes, just putting things in writing, can help clarify ones own thoughts on the matter.
for example, i wrote this whole big post on religion, just for cordnoy, and then i reread it, and thought, this is not what he needs to hear, and deleted the whole thing.
thank goodness for thinking

oy; sorry to hear that.
I don't mean to give you such trouble.
Perhaps you saved it, and one day...when I become religious, you will repost.

Thanks

lavi

How can a lust addict know if he is thinking honestly? I'm not attacking, I just have a hard time with this myself. I think I'm being honest with myself, when really it's just the little figurative red guy on my shoulder whispering in my ear.

it might depend on what you are thinking.
Dov gave me a very good hagdara (not directly as pertaining to this discussion) in my first days of gye.
He said not to think about why. just what.
i mentioned to him at the time that i wanted to figure out what caused me to act out. not why i act out.
in my experience figuring out what is happening, what i am thinking, what i need to do has been good for me. why i am thinking that, why i need to do that has been things that i stayed away from
I started thinking the other day, why did i end up with a lust problem. i stopped. what is the difference, now i have a lust problem and that is that.
It is irrelevant to me why the 12 steps help. or why coming out of isolation helps. I went through some of the 12 steps in my own sort of way, however i connected to it. i came out of isolation. I kept posting here. And it helped. why? who cares. it did.
It does help me to think about what is going on in my mind, what is it that leads up to lusting, what triggers me, what is really driving me to desire sex with my wife, what is causing me to want to look at women.
Once i know what it is, i can deal with it. I don't need to understand why i work that way.
So maybe everyone is really in agreement. it just depends how you define thinking.(maybe)

lavi wrote:
honest thinking is critical- it will make all the difference, whereas justifing is very dangerous.

How can a lust addict know if he is thinking honestly? I'm not attacking, I just have a hard time with this myself. I think I'm being honest with myself, when really it's just the little figurative red guy on my shoulder whispering in my ear.



indeed it is a challenge to know when he is thinking honestly.
one true and tried method is to run it past others and see if any of them agree with you.
another way is seeing how after a certain decision, things play out, basically trial and error.
there is another way, based on a gaon in rus, but i kinda afraid to mention it here, being that it seems to me, that it is based on religious teachings

there is nothin' wrong in usin' religious teachin's to prove a point.
There is even nothin' wrong to use religious teachin's for recovery; like we keep sayin'....whatever works for you.
It is the pushin' religious teachin's for recovery upon others that there is somewhat of a beef; but to say what works for you...kal hakavod!

yeah i know what your saying pal,
but bm was asking me a question and don't feel it is good to mention things that seem totally like a religious idea.

Bring on the religion! We believe in free speech and transfer of ideas here.

Well, as long as mods approve.

Bigmoish wrote:


i don't know about that.
just because there is free speech, doesn't mean you should say things that may turn people off.
and i'm not looking to get flack from noone.
but if you want me to tell you what the gaon says in rus, then i will reconsider.

Please do. I love shticklach from the Gaon.

This is a frum Jewish forum. Torah is allowed and encouraged here.