Something I have been thinking about on and off for several years:
1. I am not sure what motivates me to proactively do things, but I do know that the main force that causes me not to do things is definitely honor/kavod/gaavah etc. (This may be the reason I have never acted out with another person.)
2. I have a close relationship with a Rebbe, who (I think) has a high impression of me. I am 99.99999% sure that were he to find out about my struggles, my status in his eyes would plummet. Therefore, although I see him every day, I can never tell him the truth about my biggest struggle, and continue to essentially live a double life. (I have another Rebbe I am close with who I have shared with, but it's not the same.)
3. (Here's where I start to go off the rails -) I have never gotten over the question of whether I (meaning "we") am the normal one, compulsively using porn and masturbation like "everyone else," or if I am the "odd" one, and this is, in fact not normal behavior by any stretch of the imagination. (Cordnoy has always voted the second option, so I usually go with that assumption.)
4. Catch-22: a) If I am the oddball, then I have every reason to have low self esteem, be ashamed from my Rebbe and everyone else, and attempt to hide and bury this behavior and any evidence it ever existed, for the sake of my pride.
b) If I am the "normal" one (even just nominally, say in the 20-25% realm), then surely there must be some very legitimately choshuv people out there who either have struggled or currently struggle with porn, masturbation, etc. If that were true, then we certainly should have heard about at least one big talmid chacham (I'll even settle for a massive gevir in honor of Adirei Hatorah), who admits to at least having had these issues in the past. Since none have yet come forward, I am forced to say that the stigma and shame is so great, it must be something that is so terrible and shameful, I have every reason to have low self esteem, be ashamed from my Rebbe and everyone else, and attempt to hide and bury this behavior and any evidence it ever existed, for the sake of my pride.

TL/DR: I watch/ed porn and masturbate, therefore I am a loser.

Welcome to hearing any thoughts.

Moish

Bigmoish wrote on 04 Jun 2023 17:47:

I will leave for others to exclaim that you are wonderful, courageous, brave, and a tzaddik just for coming forward, and simply comment that let's say you are correct in your cool, elaborate philosophically laid-out structure (which I enjoyed reading), and that you are indeed a loser, why should you have to stay that way? Let's say that based on your history you have what to be ashamed about, can you see yourself changing and then allowing yourself to be okay with you? This is coming from someone who didn't allow himself to eat dinner in peace if second seder didn't go well; I didn't deserve it in my mind. 

In terms of whether it is normal or not, I would say it is extremely common and typical, but that does not make it normal. But it does mean we are in decent company. In terms of why no famous rabbi came out, would you want to be the first? Maybe they are here in secrecy, on GYE. Chin up now

I did not realize that this was a thread that has been active for a long time- I thought it was new. I am sorry if my response was way off the mark. (I would delete it, since I missed the whole context and backstory, but am not able to. Thank you for the points you brought up

Not to repeat what has already been said however I’m sort of going to. The first step you need to take is to embrace yourself warts and all once you do that you can begin to parse through the rest of your issues 

Dear Bigmoish - you write beautifully.

In response:

1. Fact - I have personally spoken to rabbonim, magidei shiur, roshei kollel, askanim, gevirim - loads of normal respected leaders in our communities who struggle(d) with this stuff. So, you are definitely not an oddball. You are a product of a generation that was unprepared for this nisayon and followed the same trajectory that loads of guys did. Why hasn't anyone come out publicly?! They want to be able to marry off their kids....

2. The majority of Rebbes, Roshei Yeshiva, Shul Rabbonim, and High School/Bais Medrash Rebbeim are well aware of the statistics, and are extremely sensitive and non-judgmental.  Why are you so sure this Rebbe will look down at you?

Bigmoish wrote on 04 Jun 2023 17:47:

Sorry, what's a loser?

Sounds like some fictitious concept thought up by a guy with lots of imagination..

Moish, I'm trying to understand, is 3 and 4 explaining why you shouldn't talk to your Rebbe? Or just if you have permission to be ashamed? 

Hashem Help Me wrote on 04 Jun 2023 20:32:

BigMoish, If you hunt around in the forums and you read between the lines I think you will find that there are many Talmidei Chachomim here, your brothers, who are struggling along with you in the Nisayon of our generation.
Read the enthusiastic Haskamos from all sorts of leaders - do they sound like they know what we are going through?
There is a Halacha that a person is not supposed to announce his Aveiros publicly, except in certain circumstances. That doesn't mean that sensitive people who pour their Neshomos into Ruchniyos don't have excruciating struggles. Often these struggles may be how they achieved certain levels.
Youre not a loser for having a challenge. And neither is your Rebbe, if he can relate to your challenge more personally than you think.  And even if he BH did not struggle personally, he knows so many Tayereh Yiddin who do, if he knows anything.
Speak to your Rebbe, please. I suspect you will be glad you did.
But first - I beg you - Look at the Yid in the mirror with Rachmanus and tell him - "You are not a loser. You are a Tayehreh Neshoma !"

P.S. I edited this post after writing it . not that anything in it is wrong. But because I went back to the beginning of this thread and read a few pages. And I realize I have a lot to learn from you. So please forgive the tone , I admire you a lot.

Late to the party; crazy day, crazy week, crazy month and year....

I like what Chaim wrote at the end; yes, tis a good idea to read the beginnin' of the thread; don't start with mine, however, for several reasons.

Now, Big Moish, why do you quote me on one half and not the other? Yes, we who can't keep our hands out of our pockets are in the minority (and by the way, I will concede to HHM that the number is increasin', but just because he talks to chashuvim who struggle with this doesn't mean that it's a majority at all), but that doesn't make us/you/I losers. It's a tough challenge, and some of us have it tougher for one reason or another. 

To be cont....

Godspeed

I don't see where i implied that the majority of chashuvim are nichshal.  What i did say was that 1. there are chashuvim who are (or have been) nichshal,  2. one who is nichshal is definitely not an oddball, and 3. that the majority of chashuvim are well aware of what is going on.  

Hashem Help Me wrote on 05 Jun 2023 10:56:

I guess here lies the crux of our disagreement. I believe that the more 'normal' we make this struggle, and when we turn it into the 'battle' of the generation, the more we decrease the chances of 'long term' success for many. Yes, we can accomplish some short-term victories with that approach, but ultimately, there are those who we might be doin' a disservice to. And perhaps, the question may be: who is the target audience, and how are they determined?

Godspeed

cordnoy wrote on 05 Jun 2023 12:23:

Would you explain why "the more 'normal' we make this struggle, and when we turn it into the 'battle' of the generation, the more we decrease the chances of 'long term' success for many"?

I'll start with my apology, I did not read through the whole thread, (if I start reading through threads I'll never finnish:) )

Here are my thoughts (if you disagree, I'm happy to hear why)

"אלו ואלו דברי אלוקים חיים"
There are many approaches and ways to deal with this struggle, I personally do not have a lot of experience with both mehalchim, (of HHM & Cordnoy)
However here are the benefits I take out of both of them:
With HHM's approach, we can get rid of all that guilt we gathered over the years of being alone, and its definitely a must in order to start recovery.
With Cordnoy's approach, we can learn how special we are to have these challenges, Hashem doesn't give someone a challenge that he will not be able to withstand, That means that Hashem hand-picked us to be the soldiers to fight this awful battle, It also means that we have great potential hidden within us, that the YH is trying so hard to avoid of being discovered. We don't need to be ashamed that we are from the minority, rather we can be proud of being chosen to fight this battle, and ultimately bring moshiach.
Everyone should see what works best for him.

Thanks Bigmoish, HHM & cordnoy for all knowledge you share.
True self

You have the heavy hitters responding here.

Though I would say, the average gue guy, who is still in his pajamas in his basement. No matter what you tell him, will feel great shame talking to his Rebbi.

And honestly. I think it's possible that even if your Rebbinis super understanding, he very well may (and probably will) look at you differently. It's just human nature. 

All this comes to play, why do you want to tell him? If it's to help you get clean, and you think it will really help you, well then I would invoke the mishnah " lo habayshon.."

In other words, if this question is theoreticall. Then I'll leteveryone enjoyenjoy the yagdil Torah. If it's practical, then honestly, I dont think anyone can know what your rebbi will think of you. And he may never tell you the ttruth.

So it comes down too, do you think talking to him will help you? And if yes, how can tou build up the courage to do it regardless of how he may view you.

Sorry for my ramble, I'm not sure it made any sense, nor do I necvesarily live by the above ideals.

true_self wrote on 05 Jun 2023 20:14:

Is this Cordnoy's approach?

Shmuel wrote on 06 Jun 2023 18:08:

This is what he wrote:
Now, Big Moish, why do you quote me on one half and not the other? Yes, we who can't keep our hands out of our pockets are in the minority (and by the way, I will concede to HHM that the number is increasin', but just because he talks to chashuvim who struggle with this doesn't mean that it's a majority at all), but that doesn't make us/you/I losers. It's a tough challenge, and some of us have it tougher for one reason or another. 

I guess here lies the crux of our disagreement. I believe that the more 'normal' we make this struggle, and when we turn it into the 'battle' of the generation, the more we decrease the chances of 'long term' success for many. Yes, we can accomplish some short-term victories with that approach, but ultimately, there are those who we might be doin' a disservice to. And perhaps, the question may be: who is the target audience, and how are they determined?

He believes that its the minority of men who struggle, and if so... what I wrote...