Are we only worried that our life in unmanageable because of the shmuts, or are we also concerned that we resort to shmutz because our life is unmanageable? I understand it to be the latter. The shmutz is a symptom of our unmanageable life. Our life is manageable because of our sad spiritual condition. For me my dishonesty that is fueled by fear is turning out to be a big factor in my lust.

yes, of course.but you have to understand, i am not perfect.i am merely trying to work on myself.last week, when i was inspired to write those 2 posts, i had a feeling of euphoria.i felt like i could jump 50 feet in the air. i have been thinking about submitting myself to a Higher ideal for years.and i think last week i really felt it for the first time in my 6 1/2 years here.i felt the real me was finally seeing the light of day.and that's why i was inspired to write the second post, that a person should never give up! i mean, i have been working on that idea for years! believe me, i wish i could feel like that more often. but our energy level has to take on small steps at a time - can you imagine if Hashem took us out of mitzrayim in one fell swoop? we wouldn't have been able to endure the pleasure of freedom.so He had to do it in stages, 4 stages to be exact.
i'm going to do a little work and then i'd like to post on the definition of unmanageable.
jack

just read serenity's post before going back to work.i agree, the first way is not so ay ay ay.the second way seems more truthful.

On the subject of what is the incentive that works for a person to be sober

Man is a pleasure seeker. we want pleasure. A guy loves cake but he wants to be on a diet.
So he sticks to the diet and exercise simply because: the joy of losing weight, enjoying the power of saying no to himself, looking better, people he knows stopping him and saying "Hey you look great" etc., etc., is consistently hitting his pleasure buttons in a way that is much greater, long-lasting and meaningful than the quick albeit intense but very short-lived pleasure of the cake.


So is every battle of temptation versus doing what is right

Be sober and maximize your pleasure!

With addiction I would say similarly - being sober feels eternally more pleasurable than not being.

Therefore - I will follow the derech that has shown to be the most successful - 12 steps, forum ...

But as always - do you really truly want to be sober???

you mean that for you the desire to feel sober is a stronger yearning than the desire to act out? if yes, then you are a better man than me.(or is it a better man than I?) for me, there is nothing that is stronger than the desire to act out.yes, i am a sad case.but what do you want after living my whole life connected with that garbage? oh, intellectually i know that what i'm saying is not in line with the Torah or even basic humanity.but it is what it is.could be in ten more years of work, i'll be ready to say that the desire to be sober is stronger than the desire to act out.but it isn't yet.
you want to hear a legend about the chofets chaim? he worked on humility for 36 years! ok? he wasn't born with it - he worked on himself.and see the tiferes yisroel at the end of kiddushin mishnayos that tells why moshe rabbeinu was chosen for the job - because he worked on himself!

I am referring to pleasure - what gives you more pleasure - clearly being sober 'cause your not acting out all the time you are attempting to become clean by being part of the forum and other kinds of efforts. now for pleasure we mean the actions we choose in their totality - so while acting out gives pleasure it is short lived - followed by lowly negative feelings which are terrible - followed by a domino affect in so many parts of our lives -followed by feelings of inadequacy which stink etc .....
compare that to sobriety
since we know that - in a moment of sobriety and normalcy we connect with a program and work d___ hard to get the real pleasure

but what is the strongest pull? - I agree - lust - however if you work the program the pull becomes increasingly infrequent - and weaker in general as well.

that sounds great.but i heard someone, who is in recovery for a long time, say the following: 'i'm more powerless than ever'.so it's not always true that the longer the time spent in SA the weaker the pull.it may be true for some, and not others, depending on the person.
I always, always always say that when i speak i speak ONLY for myself and my own situation.if someone can relate to it, ok. if not, also ok.so each person has to find what works for him/her.there are some common denominators, like group support, which i see as the top of the top of things that help.we can't do it alone.we need other people who are in the same boat as us, who can understand us, and who dont judge us - and THAT you will only find in fellow strugglers - no-one else understands.

k
I had 15 years of ups and downs - even today after having almost 6 months clean i live with the fact that nothing is for certain, a fall could happen anytime chas v'shalom- Only when I joined GYE and got truly serious - by learning new attitudes and strategies in how to relate to Hashem and avoid triggers have I had this limited success.

I'd like to know what that guy meant when he told you he is more powerless than ever. Of course he feels that way -'cause we learn that success has a real chance if we come to the reality that Hashem is the only one that can help and thus we must give ourselves over to him.- years of such an attitude has made him a real believer in that. (That is the hope for all of us!)
However, does that guy walk around as fearful that he will fall as when he had no record of sobriety to speak of? "Powerless" is an understanding of our relationship with G-d, when I said "weaker" I mean an insecurity that a fall is imminent.I doubt that he feels "weaker", just as insecure as before. Does he walk around at this point in his journey downtrodden and perhaps hopeless the way we all feel after a fall? Or is he in general much more relaxed about it, cautious yes, but more relaxed with the knowledge that Hashem who is the only one in charge will help him through once again.

i don't know the answer to that - he didn't say.

Powerless is over the ability to control lust. Once we let lust in, it takes control over us. The fact that someone ha many years in recovery doesn't make him any more powerful over lust than when he first came in. In fact since he is so far removed from lust, he may be highly sensitized to it. I've heard sexaholics with a lot of sobriety say that. Someone with a lot of real sobriety may be more removed from the temptation to use lust or seek it out as a solution to their problems, but that doesn't mean they have any more power over it.

Side note: It's not an option for frum yidden to control lust whether they are an addict or not. Lust is most forms is forbidden. I don't know how it works with one's own wife, but regardless shmutz and untznius people and for sure any action is not allowed. I think that causes confusion about SA program principles and addiction for a lot of people here.

here's an exercise i thought of:
did you ever hear the story that r' twerski tells about the whirlpool? well, he says there was a time when he had very low self-esteem! how did he discover this? he went on vacation once to relax, and he went to a spa and got into a whirlpool bath to relax.after about 5 minutes, he couldn't take being there anymore and he got out.the attendant said to him - why are you getting out so fast? you're supposed to stay in there for a half-hour! is the water too hot? too cold? no, r' twerski said, i just cant stand being in there.ok, we'll try again, the attendant said.so he tried again.once again, he couldn't take it.he finally discovered the reason: he couldn't stand being with himself for more than 5 minutes!
now, for me (like i always say) i get anxious when i dont have any stimulation - that means just 'BEING'. it causes anxiety - just like it must have for r' twerski. now, what if I practice being by myself for longer and longer periods without stimulation? oh, it'll be anxiety provoking for sure. but, no pain no gain!
jack

Jack,
What an interesting exercise. I am plagued with lust but enjoy quiet private time where I can read, learn, listen to music, walk or even sit in a hot tub.
I guess my anxiety is caused by other things. Using the 12 steps and tapping into the kindness from HKB"H in removing my bad traits, I am slowly overcoming the things that cause me anxiety. Besides helping avoid lust, I feel much better now that I am starting to feel less anxiety.

Hi I'm new here.
From what's written here, It seems to me that the lust is initially triggered by some outside factor, (anxiety, loneliness, etc.) but that once it's started it keeps on rolling all on it's own. Sort of like an avalanche. Someone might push a rock out of the way and all of the sudden the whole mountain is rolling. If that is true, it almost seems like it's not fair that we got all caught up in this stuff. Like the cop giving out speeding tickets on the bottom of a hill that everyone coming down.
It's soo easy to get started and soooo hard to stop!

i ask a favor of everyone - if you see me at the airport, please don't point at me and say 'hi jack'!