People often come to GYE and say "I know that all these bad things are happening to me because of my aveiros". I "accidentally" came across this Meiri when looking for something else. It discusses this exact mindset.

The Gemara in Rosh Hashana on Daf 34b says that people used to look at the red dyed wool on Yom Kippur. If it turned white, the people would be happy. If it did not, they would be sad.

Rav Yochanan ben Zakai made a takanah that it should be put inside the doorway to the ulam, but people were still able to peek and see, so he made a takanah that half be placed on a rock and half between the horns of the seir.

The meiri explains. I will post his exact loshon and then translate:



A person should always put his trust in Hashem, and his heart should not rely on anything else, that he should give up receiving good or bad because of a sign. And anytime the chachomim of the generation see people stumbling in this (mistake) it is fitting for them to try to correct this error. And that is what the gemara refers to when talking about the red dyed wool...

In the time of the Beis Hamikdash, we are told that a person should not be happy or sad because of the wool turning white or not turning white. There, it was clearly a sign that we were not forgiven and we have aveiros.

How much more so in our time with our personal simanim. We should not get depressed because we think Hashem is punishing us.

This is a powerful mekor, especially for those that feel Hashem is punishing them. That is not for us to worry about.

Hi Gibbor, I just stopped by to L'Chaim and eat some hot Bobka! And of course to say Hi!

I love the vort. Finally, something litvaks can appreciate! (Or is it "lutvaks?")

We shouldn't worry, or we shouldn't get depressed, or we shouldn't make the connection?

If God is punishin' us, we should look away?

From a litvak

באתי רק לעורר, I'm just quoting the meiri which is why I wrote the quote verbatim. Feel free to debate exactly what it means. I think at the very least he is saying. A person should not expect bad to happen to him because of a bad siman (or good because of a good siman).

Certainly he should do teshuva etc. My take was that a person shouldn't think I'm bad, so I will get punished. Or I'm a tzaddik, so I will have it good (not usually our problem).

Hashem sometimes gives good to evil people and vice versa. We should do what we are supposed to do, and have bitachon that Hashem will do whatever is good for us.

if litvaks get hot bobka, sign me up please!

ZemirosShabbos wrote:


Send me your address....oh, i already have it!

gibbor120 wrote:


i dont know what the meiri said, but your english seemed to be sayin' several different things.

Meiri wrote:

I think the key word is "yi'ush." that is what the Gemora and the Meiri are pointin' out as a bad thin'.
Regardin' the realization, or the possibility that we are bein' punished for our sins....isn't that one of the main points of punishment?

He talks about yiyush from good or bad (happening). He seems to stress bitachon, and not relying on simanim to predict if good or bad will happen. Almost like "tamim tihyeh..." Don't look to sorcerers for "signs".

He doesn't seem to be talking about being meyayesh from doing teshuva (although that is not good either).

Definitely needs iyun. It's not as simple as I first thought. But it is thought provoking, and good food for thought.

In any case, we don't really know what is good or bad. Things that may seem bad to us may really be good, and things that seem good to us may really be bad. This is seen all the time in every person's life. Therefore, we shouldn't concern ourselves with, "Oh no, such-and-such happened, Hashem must not be happy with me because I did X." We need to do what we need to do, and leave the accounting to Hashem.

This is somethin' that i have argued in the past.
There are absolutes in life.
There are certain things are bad and there are certain things that are good.
Yes, there is an ultimate good and ultimate bad, but there is also a good and bad in this world.
We are supposed to take things to heart.
Should we be worried, concerned, nervous, etc.?
Usually not.

That's the difference between the approaches of Nochum Ish Gamzu and his student Rabbi Akiva.

Nochum Ish Gam Zu saw everything, even the seemingly bad, as THIS is good.

Rabbi Akiva would say, Everything that happens is FOR the good. This thing may not be good, it could be unpleasant, but ultimately, it will be for the good.

In the story of R' Yehoshua ben Levi who accompanied Eliyahu Hanavi, one can see how perceived blessings can actually be curses, and perceived curses can actually be blessings.

Umm... Nochum Ish Gamzu said "Gam Zu LETovah" and Rabbi Akiva said "Kol Mah Deovid Rachmona LEtav Ovid". Isn't that really the same thing? He didn't say "Gam Zu Tovah".

Do you have a source for a Machlokes on this point?