Nice thoight gibor. Dov- by all means. When u gotta go you gotta go... You take care of business, I'll hold ur place in line....

Dov, I have the same fears for the same reasons.  which says that I'm ok with it all as long as it's not in my backyard.  What's up with that for a modern sophisticated psychotherapist?

Gibbor, thanks for checkin in on my thread.  Really nice.

gibbor120 wrote on 07 Sep 2011 16:30:


I think Dov missed this post. I'll post for him.
It doesn't say Yehuda went on an anonymous forum and made up an anonymous user name and posted that he'd had a fall. He stood up in public and pointed at a pregnant woman and said "She is pregnant from me!" That was a source of pride for him. I don't know if I could do it, could you?

Ooh, nice. That's beautiful!

But asking yourself if you could do what Yehudah did is unfair to you, for these reasons:

1- Yehudah was certainly not an addict and he was not in a battle to save his own life and sanity. No one deserves a medal for 'having the bravery to run out of a burning house and save themselves'. Is it 'brave'? Well, sort of...but we don't generally reward anyone for having enlightened self-interest and doing what is totally and overpoweringly natural anyway. But what Yehudah did was much, much harder. The guy who really has a bad problem, is really in trouble - and all he is willing to do about it is veiter hide behind a username and give hidden people a peek at his virtual dirty laundry - really does not even care about himself enough to sacrifice a bit of his precious ego to save himself! That's a pity...

A CPR teacher once told me that if you are ever at a dinner table and one person surprisingly and silently rises and walks away, presumably to go to the restroom...follow him. For he may be choking on food. Usually people excuse themselves when they really need to go to the bathroom. The fact is that a person is often so ashamed of choking in public - it is very embarrassing, kind of like sneezing and having mucus on my face right there in shul! I desperately cover my face looking nervously for a tissue - don't you?

Many people would rather hide while they try their hardest to cough it out, even if it means they may pass out in the bathroom - they (we) always believe in our heart of hearts that right before we really pass out we'll run out and get that help, should our private efforts utterly fail.

Same thing here. We have mucus all over us...our maybe another bodily-fluid-that-shall-not-be-named...  And the first thing we are instinctively desperate to do is HIDE!! Quick!!

Gevalt. Hiding behind a username is perfectly OK for those who don't need to get more help. But I watch some who are failing and see it for them as a slow, safe, death. Like the guy who will eventually pass out in the bathroom choking, R"l, and be found later by someone...too late for him, too late for the wife, too late for the children.

2- On the other hand, Yehudah was not admitting that he was a mess - just that he did a single very embarrassing thing;

2- Yehudah had no electricity so he could not log onto GYE even he wanted to. So he had no other breyrah.

2- how many 2's are there?

2- k    i    c    h    s    a

I liked this one so much I just had to bring it "home"

NeiroYair wrote on 01 Jan 2012 20:16:

I don't write here all that much, but I sent a PM to someone recently and thought that perhaps I should 'publish' it. So here it is...

I realized when I came to GYE about 6 months ago that 'lust' was the real issue.  That helped me to realize that I was still lusting, I was just doing it less and in other ways.  For instance, I was lusting after my wife because she was after all muteres to me.  I didn't realize that my attitude was still the same.  I want as much pleasure as I can get, I'd just like to get it in a mutar fashion if possible.  Although I had already been sober for 2 years before I found GYE (because my wife found out about my problem :-[ ), I found that it was getting increasingly difficult to keep my sobriety.  I was getting closer to the edge more often.

Dov's posts helped me out a lot as well.  I didn't realize how much my ego and self-centeredness had to do with my lusting.  I have always been very inward focused, self-absorbed.  An outside observer would not call me selfish, but all my 'avodah' was about 'me' reaching 'madreigos' (one of dov's dirty words).  I used to think that all this self focused 'avodah' was good.  I didn't realized that in essence my whole avodah was selfish as it was about me and not about Hashem at all.

It's probably no surprise that I was am a perfectionist.  I try to be in total control of my emotions etc.  I didn't realize that I was in essence locking Hashem out.  I am learning to let go and not need to be perfect.  As I wrote recently on the forum (I am sometimes amazed at what spontaneously comes out of my fingers ) I try to portray a 'perfect' image, but I am so much happier when I can accept my 'imperfect' reality.

I have been learning to accept my imperfections and admit them to people and allow other people and hashem to help me instead of insisting that 'I take care of it myself'... and that has made all the difference.  I truly beleive that my relationship with hashem begins with my relationship with others.  If I am open, honest, caring, and giving to people - I will be to Hashem as well.

Nice. Thanks for sharing this. Therz no place like home!

Thanks for dropping by,  now if gevurah shows up there will be no place to park .

Did i hear someone calling me?

We don't need no stinkin' parking spots, we just park on top of someone else's car!  ;D

Just stay off the flowers please .

Publish it, man.

ok, I know we have debated the self-esteem issue on this forum before, but I would like to share a thougth that I heard from Dr Sorotzkin.

He said that many times a teacher or parent will try to boost a child's self-esteem by "giving them opportunities for success".  It sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  The only problem is that it usually fails.  But, why?

He explains it with a mashal.  He had a car that broke down.  After being towed to a shop, he was told that the problem was that there was no oil left in the engine.  "Ok, so put in more oil" he said.  The man at the shop explained that it was too late.  The damage has already been done.  More oil won't help.  The engine needs to be rebuilt.

A child with low self-esteem is like a car without oil.  Adding more success won't help.  The child already beleives that everything that goes wrong is his fault, and everything that goes right is not attributed to him "it was easy", "that's what I ought to be doing anyway", "anyone could have done it".  He will come up with any excuse to NOT take any credit.  That is why adding more "opportunities for success" will not help.  He has no mechanism for seeing the good in himself.  He needs "his engine rebuilt".

עד כען דברי רופה סורוצקין

We have defined the problem, but what is the solution?  I didn't get a clear understanding of how to "rebuild the engine".

Anyway, this might explain why dov doesn't feel that self-esteem is where the action is.  Because trying to "feel good" about ourselves doesn't really work.  So low self-esteem may indeed be the root of our problem, but trying to boost our self-esteem directly using positive thinking may be the wrong approach to fixing it.

I have some ideas, but this is a good start.

I welcome any input.

very good analogy. (not that he needs my approval)
i look forward to following this discussion

tell me more...

Here's something I wrote on self esteem a little while ago.

gibbor120 wrote on 16 Dec 2011 18:41:

and this:

gibbor120 wrote on 27 Dec 2011 20:33:

Basically, self esteem can't come from the outside.  If it does, than it's not really "self" esteem, but "other" esteem.  We are trying to impress others to give us a positive sense of self.

I even read recently that praise can backfire. see here nymag.com/news/features/27840/ .

I'm not sure how to bring this thing full circle.  As counter-intuitive as this sounds, admitting the truth about myself, embarrasing as it is, frees me from "other" esteem and somehow I feel much better about myself.  Maybe the key to self-esteem is simply facing reality.  Anyway, thinking about it as self-acceptance instead of self-esteem also seems to help me.

The root of self-esteem has to be internal.  NOT because of something I did, but because of something I am.  The only thing that I am that is not related to something I did, is the fact that I am the handiwork of the creator.  That - I beleive is the true core of self-esteem.  For some reason that "idea" could not begin to take root in me until I admitted my human frialties (a nice way of saying disgusting behavior )

I am not any kind of expert on this topic.  It's just something I have been thinking about for a long time, and I am as confused as ever about it.  Part of being human I guess .

I was hoping someone who has been to a therapist would chime in.  I guess they are just as confused, or don't find the topic sufficiently interesting.