I think we need to honestly face the truth. You can't have it both ways. We want to be ehrlich to the torah but we also want to do business the same way that secular people do, who have no connection to the torah or guidance from the torah.

The orach Chaim in achrei mos in the parsha of arayos says that the nature of the human beast is such that if you look you lust, and the only way to control the taivoh is not to look. I think that any other guidance will not work and will leave the person feeling bad about himself thinking that he's worse than other people in the sense that they can control themselves but he can't. The truth is that he isn't worse than anybody else because everyone is the same that if you look you lust, period.

So the answer is avoid eye contact to save yourself from bad thoughts.

Anyway it really isn't disrespectful by the standards of the torah. It is actually highly respectful to treat women with dignity that they are not hefker to be looked at by men. It is only the non torah world who has made the rules seem that looking away is an act of disrespect. We don't have to buy into those standards.

I assure you this will not adversely affect your parnassa. You will certainly have more siyata dishmaya in your business if you don't chase away Hashem - velo yireh becho ervas davar veshav meacharecho.

May hashem give you much hatzlocho beruchnius ubegashmius.

i also vote for your opinion
thanks

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


I respect what you are saying, but do you deal with women?
Can you do business without looking on them?

Recovery is all about livin' life.
The problem is not about conductin' business with a woman; it is beforehand.
What is one doin' to help himself?

[quote="doingtshuva" post=246879]Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


2 questions

Here is the first question. The rules which are written in the various sources in the torah, are we just simply to keep them all assuming that they apply to all of us equally or is there a difference if someone is ill(with lust). The rules as they are written might seem to be too prohibitive. By the rules, if a person is in a situation which makes him sin he must remove himself from situation, even if it means finding another means of parnasa. We find about a yichud issue where is actually says in shulchan aruch in discussing a particular situation that if there is no option of having his wife present at all times at work he should find other work. Similarly any situation even if not in direct violation of yichud, if it causes transgression we must avoid it. So back to the question. If we believe that this situation wouldn't be a problem for a person who isn't ill with lust, does someone who is ill with lust have to remove himself from this situation, or should he not, but rather work on heeling himself even though in the mean time he is in a peril situation?

The second question. Is looking at women okay for anyone even if not ill with lust?

If the answer to either question is in the direction of prohibition then I would say don't waste your years struggling with a sure losing battle. Instead find yourself a way to del without looking or find another means of parnasa. It sounds like a tough deal but in the long run it might be the easier way.

'easier' way?
Who's lookin' for easy?
We lookin' for a recovery program.

And by the way, God didn't take your neshamah anywhere; He does take it at night, but He returns it every mornin' the same way you gave it to Him; he makes no mistakes; He didn't give yours to someone else, and He didn't give someone else's to you; so, if you want your neshamah back, or if you want your neshamah to look like it was when God gave it to you in the first place, what are you gonna do about it?

In response to Cordnoy

Touche!

Have a wonderful Shabbos.

Hashivalisesonyishecho, (you didn't yet answer me if you deal with women?)

I didn't say we should look at women on the street, or in general just for the sake of pleasure. No we should avoid any extra talk with women.
But at work you have to be a Mench, NO?
I'm not aware of a prohibition of looking or talking with a customer for the sake of doing business, yes we should try to minimize eye contact or any extra talk. Believe me I learned Hilches Yichud several times, and I constantly speak to my Ruv on problematic situations that come up.
Even if I'll leave my job, I will still have to meet and talk to women,in the post office, airport........ so I believe that we just have to learn how to talk, and how not to lust during the talking. It's not easy but it's possible.

Cordony wrote - The problem is not about conductin' business with a woman; it is beforehand.
Your right, we have to be lust free before we come to work!

Hashivalisesonyishecho, I would say that if someone sees that he can not control himself then he should maybe change his job.

[quote="doingtshuva" post=246917]Hashivalisesonyishecho, (you didn't yet answer me if you deal with women?)

I don't deal with women on a daily basis. I sometimes have business meetings where women are taking part. The first thing they find out about me is that I don't shake their hands so they see that they are being treated differently by me than the men. To be dreadfully honest, when they aren't pretty I usually don't make eye contact because I don't have such urge to look at them. When they are pretty... well this is one of the things I hope to correct now that I am working on this. But not making eye contact never affected any business for me.

Hashivalisesonyishecho


I disagree.

Maintain eye contact to save yourself from bad thoughts.

skeptical wrote:


Good point. But let me clarify. When I say avoid eye contact I mean avoid any involvement such as friendly talk and mannerisms and be totally geeky dry and businesslike. If you do that then not looking at her is totally not an issue because you're not relating to her at all. But if you're being friendly with small talk and humor but you happen to be looking in a different direction, boy will you be preoccupied and busy putting this complicated charade together.

Let me clarify some more. If you're dealing with a woman who dresses and acts with tznius, then seeing her while discussing business shouldn't be a problem for people who don't otherwise have a particular problem with such things. So while I say that you shouldn't make small talk and just stick to business, it isn't necessary to look in a different direction. But when dealing with a woman who put herself together in a provocative way as do for the most part the (goyishe) business woman who work in the city, then it's possible to look at a woman like that without it being a problem. I think.

I continue to maintain: We should continue to work on our lust issue before we get there. It is up to us, whether they are b'tznius or not; whether they are pretty or not. Like Skep said: maintain eye contact and save yourself.

Regardin' small talk and stuff, that there are halachos on.

b'hatzlachah

I must agree that when im being talkative and funny i need to fight harder to not gaze. When im dry and to the point i have less of a pull.

I have a scheduled business meeting for Friday morning where there will be some women attending. I would like to plan it in a way that I can keep squeaky clean in every sense. I don't need to accommodate or please anyone because I am the businessman in this deal. I just want to do the correct thing to have the appropriate and correctmeasure of politeness by Torah standards and not standards of the secular world because the goyim do not govern what is a chilul or kidush hashem so their standards don't have to be my standards. I would like some thoughts and suggestions.

If there is a specific question, perhaps I can answer, but in general, what is wrong with bein' polite and courteous, talkin' to them when you need to, discuss the business and close the deal? I would say the same with the men. Regardin' small talk, there obviously should be less kibbitzin' with the women than the men.

b'hatzlachah