Looks gevaldiggg
shkoyach

Shteeble wrote on 17 Nov 2011 16:06:

You seem to be adressing 2 different issues.
1) How well you need to know it in the first place.
2) How well you need to remember it.

1) I need to know it at least clearly enough that I know what I know and I know what my questions/difficulties are.  I don't need to answer all of them, but I must know what they are.

2) The more chazarah the better.  This is where the Y"H focuses, because that's where a lot of the growth is.  He lets us learn with geshmak, but makes sure we are lazy about chazarah.  I could use chizzuk in this as well.  But there's nothing more depressing than hearing someone quote a gemarrah that I know I learned, but I don't remember.  There's nothing as geshmak as learning some gemarrah that quotes another gemara or mishna I learned and remember.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it's my 2 cents.

I couldn't find this in the voting buttons.

Hatzlacha!

Zemmy,

Thank you again for the link.
I listened to the first 25 minutes in one shot.
That's a record for me!

Gibbor,

Thanks so much for your input.

Everyone is requested to please share any tips or feelings on the subject, ltoeles harabbim.

Yasher Koyach.

Thanx for bringing it up again shteebs.

What I find the most helpful is writing, kinda like what yosefhatzadik said, but not just chidushim, but everything everything everything, start doing it and you'll see what I mean. Very important to have clearly defined goals [having a chavrusa and seder helps a lot for that]. Also about learning one mishna... I have this thing where I try to learn a perek mishnayos 101 times, i'm up to time number 23 on perek 6. it's awesome. the first coupla times just say the words, then learn rambam, say the words another few times, then bartenuro, another few times tiferes yisrael, it's great cuz after like 15-20 times you basically know it by heart and if you have it printed out on a small paper you can read it a few times a day, and as time goes on you find yourself looking up more mefarshim, the gemaros etc. it's a lot of fun
but back to the inyan, the single most important thing to me was writing
writing
writing

I know what you mean about the writing.

For me learning on shabbos presents an extra challenge because I can't write.

Shteeble wrote on 15 May 2012 19:48:

Ha! I had a whole sheila if I'm bichlal allowed to learn on shabbos "shema yavo lichtov" [btw, when I see something on shabbos and I want to write about it after shabbos, I don't fold the page but place a tissue there, Rabbi S.Z. Auerbach writes that folding a page constitutes Borer]. But besides it is stam assur to learn on shabbos as the sefer Divrei Tzaddikim writes:

I find that either learning deep, or chazzering alot and even more help to enjoy learning and not to fal into the YH.

Ok great I love this topic! TZ I laughed out loud when I read the end for all the litvacks.
There's a couple of points here that need to be said not that I'm qualified but I've heard from people who are.
A lot of times when we don t feel enjoyement from our learning it isn't necessarily bc our learning isn't going well its because were focusing on the other guy we want the kavod of being the top guy in the shiur asking all the right questions being noticed which when it doesn't happen causes a chalishut ha'daat. So we have to know our learning has nothing to do with being the best its all about being mdabek ourselves with hashem. We have to take the time to recognize the chashivut of what were doing fulfilling the purpose of the universe is no small feat, its not easy to feel that , but I'm sure in time ill get there.
So point a-is you have to know the chashivut of what your doing, and especially for guys here it should be easier to see how all the taavot in the world have nothing to offer, mamish like darkness before light compared to the torah. Its m'meila that when you appreciate the importance of what your doing you'll enjoy it more and the mashal of the man in the kings vault for five minutes can actually hit home.
Secong point is you and everyone needs to feel a sense of accomplishment and this is where I feel a lot of the eitzot are falling into. This category of accomplishment, its hard to learn and learn and learn and all of a sudden you wake up and you think so what did I accomplish I don't remember anything. Chazara and a lot of it helps R' Avigdor Miller at the end of his tape the 10 steps to greatness I think it was stresses the importance of making a kinyan on 10-1d daf a zman for a yeshiva guy through a lot of chazara. He also told his talmid to write down his chidushim on tefilla on index cards and save them and one day you'll have enough to write a sefer. Also look at chazon ish letter #2
I saw quoted chacham ben-tzion aba shaul that if a person learns 5 hours straight he'll get a tremendous geshmack he's never had before.
Also writing helps a lot because you'll see your accomplishments. Also when you take a gemara with all the mefarshim do it slow and get it clear. Kol hatchalot kashot so when you don't want to sit down for a seder just do five minutes , and then five minutes take it slow and you'll get into it. And if you really can't do it don't drop the rest of the seder take something light that you can do
Alright that's it from me I really am just telling you over what my rebbeim have told me because I have (and am currently going through) the same dillema of not enjoying the learning so much. More like I'm out of it. Hopefully writing this will have helped me.also you can read sheva yipol tzadik, amela she'll torah, and torat habayit, shem olam, shaar hatorah in shmirat haoshon, and binyan olam. Also try not too learn with too much pressure or thinking to yourself am I enjoying the learning am I not enjoying the learning??? Just take it easy.
Ok now I'm realy done

Now that this thread was dusted off again...
For all my early years I had this very serious problem. Over the past couple of years, with the help of my Rebbeim, it has been mitigated, as follows:
1. Bekius Learning lots of things, very fast, just once, with basic meforshim (read: Rashi or Rav). I am (wow!) on my fourth round of Shisha Sidrei Mishna, 4 mishnayos per day, started 9th grade (with two and then three at first). It only started paying off in the third round. I don't need to spend time preparing a sugya on all the obscure topics. The purpose of this limud was for familiarity of the various subjects, and it did eventually happen. Also, set aside time for plain Gemara with Rashi, including chazara of masechtos you learned before.

2. Writing, indeed. If you translate a limud, it forces your brain to PROCESS what you read. The purpose of this is to remember it- and that goes a long way towards sipuk.

3. Halacha. When the limud has practical applications, it goes a long way. Besides, when someone else knows something that I should've known, it makes me feel like an am ha'aretz. (BTW, I am. But I'm working on it. Slowly.) Keep in mind, halacha is a two-edged sword. One should never assume they can paskin just because they saw the Mishna Brura on the subject.
Be advised, I found it useful for some sedarim to have a set schedule (i.e. x amount of time or pages per day), and some open ended (i.e. Now where did I leave off the last time I did this?).
This is from my experience, only. I haven't learned the sugya of sipuk.

Hatzlacha!
Meir

We always havta remember that learning is our water our connection to hashem and the main way to be connected to hashem is through being connected to his torah ;D

-Matisyahu

It really comes down to YOU. if you dont really know how to learn, learn what you can understand so that you can say confidently "I understand a piece of God's Holy Torah! The knowledge I now have is my connection to the highest realms of existence, and the Shechinah is now that much closer!"
I also find that learning only iyun can be exhausting if you don't yet have the fire for it. So divide your learning into the gufei halachos and the parpraos l'chochmah. it's good to have your chalav of torah (gemara, mishnah, halacha etc.), but it's also important to have your dvash (mussar, machshava, midrash, etc.), not to mention tanach (with the abundance b"H of Torah today, we forget how important the original pesukim are)!

the way to enjoy Torah in my opinion is to start on time and learn with excitement even if its hard and you dont get it. the more work you put into it the more you enjoy it. thats pshat why parents love their children so much even though they get woken up at 3 am. its because they give so much.

abieham wrote:

Wow! Amazing and Inspiring!
I never thought of it that way!
Thanks