Of all the items you mentioned, the only one that applies to the discussion is the taking off of glasses in the street. Did the person also avoid watching the news and seeing any pictures of women and making any small talk with female neighbors and women in stores etc? The reason I ask is that avoiding the shmutz on the streets which is truly very bad shmutz is not yet the syag I'm talking about.

All of the other items you mentioned have nothing to do with syagim and will accomplish nothing on their own like tovel vesheretz beyado.

ok then, so I pass.

I find my experience similar to cordnoy and Dov... This idea did work for me for a couple o weeks but eventually the reality ( my YH) overpowered my emotional thinking... Short term this can certainly work for some and it's worth a try. Just be on your toes that eventually this process could fizzle out... Hatzlocha and pls keep us posted.

In response to 9494

I understood that this is the issue and I'm not suggesting that the syagim are there to protect us short term in each individual case because as you say the person in a moment of weakness can do away with the syag. I'm suggesting a way of life which takes his mind off of lust because he hardly comes across lust triggers. Most of us encounter triggers a thousand times a day and they keep the mind busy with these thoughts. But with a way of life as I'm suggesting this will put him in a different mindset and he will naturally eventually have other thought occupying him and this way might not so easily fall even when he does encounter a trigger.

9494, I'm wroking my way through your points from last to first.

If it turns out that it doesn't work, then I'll gladly admit.

I don't have an issue that that The Torah has to provide the solution. My issue is whether it is necessary to see ourselves as ill and therefore assume that all antidotes which work for normal people won't work for us, or can we say that this isn't the necessarily the case and the reason the antidotes don't work is because we're not doing them the way they need to be done.

I agree that the lust is from within but the situation within is very much influenced by everything that he encounters from the outside. You will surely agree that this problem/illness has become much more rampant with the advent of the internet so clearly outside influences play a role here. Or are you saying that once he bit from the apple he's stricken with the unhealable illness - kol baeha lo yeshuvun velo yasigo orchos chaim. Maybe that's true.

And if you ask how he'll get to long term if he can't deal with short term I say do whatever you're anyway doing for the short term and in conjunction with that try to do a long term solution.

The difficulty in what I'm suggesting even if it could work is that it requires changing the lifestyle.

I hear you loud and clear.

Please chaver, bear with me in this.

Many have said that the major source of unhappiness is low self-esteem. At face value it seems to make perfect sense, for we frequently look down on ourselves and the solution should obviously be to instead look more positively at ourselves, increase our self-confidence and aim higher instead of throwing ourselves down into the gutter of self-loathing. This entire model has been repeated so often that people accept it as absolute and applicable to all. The result is ego-building exercises (you are a somebody), esteem-building exercises ("You are great!"), and then careful practice with healthy humility rather than our knee-jerk self-bashing.

But it's strange how nothing in the program seems anything like ego-building. It talks of converting our knowledge that we are crazy, into true acceptance through public admission that we are ill and different than normal people: by walking into a real live meeting (without a bag on our heads) together with other safe people and saying, "Hi, I am ____ and I am an alcoholic/sexaholic, and I obviously cannot manage my own life, etc." When we do step 1, we are saying that our very best thinking we could actually do got us exactly in this very mess. In trying to manage our 'problem' (lust and other people), we came to see we are failures...therefore we take step 2, which addresses not our need for sobriety at all, but our ned for sanity and health of mind. The steps are only geared to addicts. Then in step 3, we - even though we have always been frum (but sinning) people - finally break our gayvoh and admit to goyim and yidden alike that we really have not had a relationship with G-d that actually works in real life. For we have always ended up having to resort to our drug in order to tolerate life. That's what we meant when we felt inside that we 'couldn't live without it'. We loved it - let's admit it - and depended on it deeply, took big risks to keep and use it, at great emotional and often financial cost (mesiras nefesh). And now we humbly embark on the road to finding a relationship with our G-d that actually works. A true 3rd step. How? By working steps 4 and 5! We agree to face the fact that all our emotional problems in life are of our own making. That's a hard pill to swallow, but we do. Then in steps 6 and 7 we agree to let our defects go and ask G-d to remove them...cuz we admit that with all our Torah and all our therapy and all our bechira - we haven't the power to remove the great stumbling blocks: our arrogance and self-centered fears. And on it goes: our weaknesses are responded to with yet more dependence on G-d every step of the way.

And none of the literature talks of 'finally getting control of dinking/lusting' - for all real 12 step programs know that the first step means we need permanent abstinence from our drug, whatever it happens to be. And acceptance of that seems so much like 'admitting defeat'! Like surrender. And yes, it is exactly that, if you ask any alcoholic. Incredible how I heard on the news this morning, Mr Sasson, the father of those 7 children killed in a fire in his house R"l while he was away. In the hesped, he admitted out loud what all addicts learn in recovery: "The only way to survive such a tragedy and go on with life, is total and unconditional SURRENDER!" Those who suffer loss and cannot go on, remain bitter precisely because they do not surrender to reality - they fight it inside. They feel they must. Like giving up is totally impossible. Apparently, knowing and accepting are two very different things, indeed. Wow. At any rate, self-acceptance as we really are seems to be the overall thrust of the first 5 steps, rather than self-appreciation or ego-building. Hmmm...

[No wonder plenty folks twist the program into something else that sounds much more attractive than all that. They say the steps are all about fighting lust rather than learning how to live without our drug. About getting sobriety rather than getting sanity. Gevalt. Or they say that it is all about getting [i]control[/i] over our drinking/lusting - as if we chronic drinkers will ever be able to control lust the way normal people can! See our arrogance? But we are plotzing to follow anyone who tells us we are really 'too good for all that stuff'. And similarly, many frum people see 12 steps and recovery as 'a crusade against sin' and teach that recovery means vigilance and constant focus on kedushas habris. Even though all that really means that, at the end of the day, all we are thinking about all day long is sex and our sexuality. But that's secretly what people are attracted to! Sex sells, period.]

* * * * * * *


Rather, I have come to believe that often sadness self-disgust stem from quite the opposite: having an inflated expectation of our selves and our abilities. Our pride tells us we aught to be like that tzaddik we 'worship' or like 'such-and-such' a Chaza"l we have read or heard spoken of. Our pride is telling us things that are crazy. That we are not like children playing in the toilet water compared to these great men. Our pride tells us we should really be like them. No wonder we feel failures! Instead of working on where we really are holding, we shoot for the stars. Gevalt, what disgust that leads to. Your thread here is called: 'Disgust Cancels Lust'. Well, our self-disgust feeds lust like gasoline on a fire! And it is precisely our gayvoh that causes such self-disgust. We see the great people and over-inflate ourselves like chometz, into creatures we really aren't! Then we condemn ourselves for not measuring up.

And believe it or not, we porn-users do the very same thing with the porn we watch, as we do in our fantasy regarding madreigos of Kedusha: we expect our sex ought to be exactly like that, over and over...our poor wives do not stand a chance! Fantasy is fantasy, is fantasy. No matter if it's in Torah and madreigos, or if it is in sex or business success. We have many reasons we condemn ourselves as failures in many areas of life - and they are all based on prideful self-inflation.

Yes, we each have unique gifts - but in the overwhelming number of areas in life, we are mediocre. That is torture for us.

I will never be one of the Gedolei Torah. That was torture to face, after coming back from yeshiva in EY and being pumped up with stuff to the contrary by some of my rebbis...at least that was the way I heard their encouragement. Accepting that truth, that our greatness is not like those I worship and have been told to worship and whom everyone admires...is a very hard thing to do. So most guys run! (And sex fantasy is a very cheap and powerful way to feel some grandeur indeed!)

Ideas like, "Mosai yagi'ah ma'asai l'ma'asei avosai?," and "Kin'as sofrim tarbeh chochma" simply cannot be used successfully by most people us in these doros. So for us they are nahriskeit...actually. And repeating them to impressionable youth is probably assur, I feel. Knowing how and [i]when to apply Torah concepts is far more important than knowing Torah concepts themselves. That's why the Gemora says "gedola shimusha yoser milimudah!", and very few talmidim ever get that!

Indeed, we each are unique and outstanding in something. But removing that subtle but impossible burden of 'measuring up to someone else', is possibly the greatest gift we can give ourselves to restore self-esteem. All the fantasies and lusts for 'madreigos' will dissolve - for they are really not tayvo for Kedusha - they are tayvos for recognition. For being able to say about ourselves in our hearts that "I am like such-and-such a tzaddik." With some humble self-acceptance we will finally start to be ourselves and approach Hashem accepting who we really are. Finally, Hashem will be face to face in our shemoneh esrei with very the same person He knows we are, instead of with a person who thinks he is someone else! It's a beautiful homecoming. Reality is a great place to start avodas Hashem from. The Maggid said it is actually the only place to start it from. It is what the tzaddik meant when people asked him if he would be just like his Rebbe if he could, and responded: "Nope. Hashem already has one of those: the Rebbe! Rather, I am gonna be me, for that's what Hashem wants." And what R' Yisroel Salanter meant when he told his talmid, who said that he wished to have R' Yisroel's middos, R' Itzeleh's yir'as Shomayim and R' Shkop's brains - "No, no. Davka your middos and your yir'ah and your brains is what Hashem wants!"

We see that our great tazdikkim have incredible sensitivity to lust and schmutz. They are like delicate instruments that do not tolerate the slightest blemish. R' TzviMeyer (whom I love very much) sometimes feels like he should go to the mikvah again after just going out into the street. That's because is a tzaddik. He is like the mirrors in the Hubble - and I am like a tefilin mirror. Did you know that the mirrors in the Hubble telescope are ground to a distortion of less than 10 nanometers over the entire parabola? (no, I am not a geek, I just looked it up!) But my eyeglasses function perfectly fine even though they have far greater distortions! For my eyes are not at that level. If I demanded such perfection in the grinding of my lenses, I'd be prideful. And I'd need to see a shrink. Same with expecting to copy the tzaddikim. It's gayvoh and leads to one thing: nuttiness. Or what R' Yaakov Kaminetzky zt"l would call, 'not being normal'.

One good thing to see that few realize, is that when Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai blessed the talmidim, he said, "May you take Hashem as seriously as you take people (meaning even the goy standing over there!)." And the talmidim said, "That's all? Chas vesholom to feel about Hashem the way we feel about mere people!" His response was, "Oy, halevai. Teida - know - that you do not take Hashem nearly as seriously as you take even the goy standing over there, and you hide in shame from him, not from Hashem."

Now, to whom was he speaking? The dregs of the yeshivah? Nope. He was talking to Tanno'im. And he was telling them that human nature - even for the great tannoim - is to take a goy watching us far more seriously than we take Hashem yisborach. It's just the truth. The sooner you admit and accept it, the sooner you will be able to start working on changing it. But if you are flying about in 'madreigos', then you are never likely to work on what you are really lacking in. The seforim called 'Bilvovi Mishkan Evneh' by R' Itamar Schwartz Shlit"a are all about developing the simple realness of a relationship with G-d. And so is the 12-step program. Neither are about Torah or religion, but rather about derech Eretz/sanity (as R' Schwartz clarifies in his hakdoma to the English version of 'Da Es Atzm'cho".)

The Halocha is that a cow without a single blemish but with a head or single leg that is too big for the rest of it's body, is posul. Same here. I need to accept who I really am and grow all aspects of myself in an even fashion. If I put onto myself madreigos that are not mine at all - like becoming upset when seeing a woman and recognizing that I realize she is pretty - or getting worked up that I have a thought of sin - creates a mountain out of a molehill. It creates the problem. That is why many have told me that even though they gain so many great tools on GYE but they get much worse by hanging around here and focusing on tahara and perfectionism against schmutz. They end up fighting sex and desires all day and all night...and it just grows in their minds even more. And to their surprise, when they leave GYE, they have far fewer falls. (Thats for some people, not all.)

Making women and their images 'the enemy', just gives their images more and more of our own power! It creates the enemy. But in reality, women are just: people. Real, live people. Hashem loves women just as he loves men - he even cares for and gives life with great love to the goyim - even to the shiksas dressed immodestly in the street. The Kotzker (I think) said that if one wrestles all day with dirty people gets all covered with mud from head to toe - even if he wins! Instead, we in SA usually just surrender women we feel attracted to and their images. And if we find ourselves thinking about them and obsessing over them, we just pray for them. Not for them to 'do Teshuvah and dress normal', but for their health, for their husbands to be well and treat them right, for their children not to have tragedies or get sick, for them to discover the relationship Hashem wants to have with them - yes He even wants to have a relationship with the pritzusdikeh shiksa, for he knows that she knows no better and rachamov al kol ma'asov. And Dovid hamelech prayed that Hashem get nachas - joy - from every single one of His creations including lions, rabbits, the sky and fields - and even from the shiksas.

Getting more normal goes a very, very long way.

I am not judging you, but your post just reminded me of these issues when you went into what this tzaddik does and what that tzaddik does. And underneath that is an expectation of these things from ourselves - otherwise why try to do them?

And I feel this answers what you were asking in that post.

Sorry abt the crazy length of that post, but I was sick today and had all day to write, so it just went on and on. But each paragraph says something, at least, so it isn't a waste, be"H.

Hatzlocha to he who refers to himself by the moniker 'Hashivalisesonyishecho'

I am glad that now I the few minutes to give an appropriate response to Dov's post. His message deserves a comment not only for the wisdom that lies within but moreover for the caring spirit in which it was articulated.
You mention the discrepancy between addiction and perhaps a strong lure of the Y"H. You suggest I am in the latter category. I am not sure. I will try to give a brief history of my challenges. It could/should be longer than I am writing but at this point I value my anonymity and thus will leave out certain parts(although nothing that I think would change your diagnosis. I am just over 50. - Therefore my teen-age years were internet and cell phone free. P___ meant magazines and a rare soft-P movie. So P and M were engaged in but probably not much more frequently than the average young healthy red blooded young man. When I got married I promised myself that I would stop. I did.
You see- after marriage I became much more religious and learned a ton. This went on for about 12 years. I was a young good looking dude and did not yield in a number of very compromising situations at work.
One time I received in the mail a Victoria Secrets catalog - I looked away and tore into pieces - I was now in my glory I had finally done total Teshuva

Until now, this story stinks of self-righteousness, false modesty and boring as H___ but stay tuned dear chevra and see what transpires -feel to the ends of your bones the mighty fall that haunts me till this very day.

PCs(personal computers) had come of age. My wife uncharacteristically asserted that we need one. After all we are not in the stone age, are we? Can't the kids be able to watch an appropriate video without having to go to a relative? ( As you sense the inevitable about to occur please understand I do not blame my wife an iota. It is entirely my undoing- I was a royal wimp here and did not do what was obvious and intelligent- share with her my shortcomings - my fear of lust)

One day I went over to the computer and started to discover this new found toy. I tried to make a search- remember this is the time of dial ups -computers are as slow as molasses.
I don't remember what I typed in but ever so slowly a P-graphic pic started to appear. The next STMT is hard to accept as true. but this is what actually happened - as the pic formed I felt a sharp pain in my chest. -not the kind of pain that heart attack patients claim they have- like an elephant on their chest- rather it felt as if I had been stabbed by a spear -sharp an as intense as can be-
I began to breathe heavily and bli guzma -I thought my life was over - I stood up, walked to the other side of the room and took long deliberate breathes. After regaining mu composure I did, hands down, the worst decision of my life. I returned to the computer and ...
How many times have I gone over the scene, dreaming of a different ending. Maybe 15 minutes later my wife no more the wiser called me for dinner.
Since this is not a novel I will cut to the chase. This led to more frequent visits to the computer when I felt it was "safe." A cycle of activity took place - I would watch then a few days/weeks even months of sobriety would take place - with all kinds of promises and tefilos only to end up returning to the shmutz.

In short a list of what I did and did not do.

Did -a lot of P, M was done but maybe 5 or 6 times over a period of maybe 15 years of acting out, I began to engage in phone S___
It started innocently by phoning a wrong 800 number. After a while I would sneak late at night into another room and call free numbers for hours. I often wondered how this could be. My kids have never heard me say a 4 letter word in my life yet I could and did talk the worst of the worst with another lowlife like myself for long periods of time. When I would be alone for a while there were times I felt as if something was coming over me and forcing me to engage in phone S___ - like a zombie of sorts
late at night I would take my wife's phone and search away in the world of never never lust. - only to feel depressed and demoralized afterwards

Did not - go clubbing- meet anyone on the internet for a live one to one in person meeting (although I am not some illustrious person - enough people know me that the possible sighting and then the inevitable shame really scared me)

All along I continued to learn, daven and do mitzvos but I was changed man. A certain luster of the spiritual life had ebbed from me.
about 6 months ago my family was sitting together at the shabbos table - my eldest daughter said she wants to marry someone "refined" like Tatty- I froze- I looked at her through the corner of my eye - she must really be making fun of me, right? I don't think she knows

I felt so deeply terrible- a real loser - I am in reality a fake, phony and fraud.

I was a decent guy at one time- and I fell - with the help of my friends at GYE I am slowly regaining my self-worth.

Thank you.

No diagnosis from me, but this was funny:
Luster! Hah!

Yes, by the powerlessness vested in me by my addiction, hereby give you the long-awaited permission to laugh at your dumbness for doing those things! Move on, Tatty. You aren't that great, join the club. A colossal jerk, you are not. Lower your standards to a little closer to where Hashem knows they are and do Teshuvah. Hashem really does forgive completely when we truly regret it (Gm' Brachos). Better than any person forgives (Sha'ar hayichud v'emunah - not bad for a non-lubavitcher!).

So please consider keeping right on doing the things you are doing that have worked for the past 135 or so days of clean time - except for maybe consider stopping with the adding up of the days of clean time already. It's a bit silly. My G-d you are over 50 already, you don;t ned that stuff. Just be clean today and everything will take care of itself, guaranteed. I do not even daven for the year on Yom Kippur - only for that day - Yom Kippur...Hashem has been taking care of the rest of year just fine so far without my help. Feel the peace of being a loser and a fraud among many frauds (all of us in some way) and having the very best friend anyone could ever have: G-d. Oh..and your wife and kids love you too, obviously. Maybe now you can stop trying to 'deserve' them, and just be grateful for them and take real, healthy pleasure in them. They are precious!

So, just a fervent and pleasant wish that you keep increasingly engaged in your life and family and in your really real-sounding relationship with G-d...and stop beating the living crap out of yourself, my brother. You have a yetzer hora and a penis - not a very good combination! Nu.

Smile and move on, brother.

Dov wrote:

Dov - please G-d, you should have a refuah shleimah b'karov.
-- Larry

Thank you

I have been moving on the last 135 days or so.

much happier, much more real more wholesome...

Dov, I want to read your post carefully so I will have to set aside time for that. So far I just skimmed through it but that's certainly doesn't do it justice as I see that there is a lot of thought and wisdom there. I did notice however that at the end you referred to my reference to tzadikim. I think you misunderstood my intention. I meant to say even tzadikim and kol shekain plain people. In other words the tzadikim didn't rely on their rightiousness to be protected from sin but the knew that they needed syagim. By learning from them in this it isn't an indication that we think we're tzadikim. on the contrary if we don't then it's an indication that we think we're better than them. A person who makes a syag does so with the understanding of al taamin beatzmecho which is an understanding of humility and powerlessness.

Normal people, especially tzaddikim, are not powerless.

Dov wrote:


I totally disagree!

What about ilemole hakodosh boruch hu ozro lo yuchal lo?

What about al taamin beatzmecha?

That's why syagim are needed, because if we get to close to the nisoyon, we're all powerless. lech lech amrin nezira sechor sechor lekarma lo sikrav