TalmidChaim wrote:


Please ask permission from Mr. SIBL08645 to use the "rabbit-hole" expression. MBJ used it twice, and Nachshon got away with it once, I mentioned it only once, and that was to say that I don't know what da hell it has to do with our issue.

If he says you can use it, then go right ahead!

chiming in a bit late, but in my experience when I was in a period of aliyah and would learn mussar daily (which is a similar idea to what was proposed here) I was ok.
However as often happens, I would often slip into a matzav of yerida. That was when I would get stuck into the porn and masturbating. And of course it was davka in those situations where the underlying causes that brought me to porn and acting out.
So basically the mussar track worked when I was in the mussar mode but it didn't help me when I fell out.
Coming to gye and learning new tools and understanding lust and all that comes with it, has given me the tools to stay clean even while going through the most trying times that I have experienced in the last several years. Even when I went weeks without learning mussar or even opening a sefer for any serious amount of time.

I agree that repulsive thinking is lemayseh thinking. The Baal Shem Tov says so, that a bad thought is to be killed on the spot - not dealt with and dismantled by rationalizing.

The nesoyon that R' Akiva had was different. He was forced to be in a situation which he couldn't kill, so he had to deal with it. So he used this approach.

I'm a little confused about the "rabbit hole" thing. This is my fault being out of the loop for so long. Please enlighten me.

Don't worry, I don't think the Incredible Hulk could fit in one.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote:


"But...Hulk...like little bunny!"

yiraishamaim wrote:


I sincerely believe that you are not an addict at all, in any sense of the word, chaver, and I am so happy for you. You have much to be grateful for.

It strikes me again that I read "I am a relative beginner with regard to addictive type of behavior". It seems many come here and buy into the idea that there is some great value in coming to admit that they are addicts. I do not agree with this, at all. I think it is a tragedy.

Chaza"l and the Torah are true. They do not talk of addicts. They talk of the yetzer hora. If you read "The Doctor's Opinion" in AA, it becomes clear that the problem addicts have is that we are mentally ill (among other things). Chaza"l talk of fighting the YH and winning the battle as the basic, major job of humans. The Mesilas Yeshorim makes this abundantly clear.

Yet addicts of all kinds and of all walks of life who use the 12 steps, do nothing of the sort. We admit we have a disease and cannot beat it. We agree that if we succeed to stay sober one day at a time for the rest of our lives, it will be G-d's victory completely and not our own. They surrender the fight to win, and give up all the glory that comes with winning, get on their knees and submit to G-d's Will for them by accepting the value of actually living life without their drug. That there is life after giving up our drug is a total shock to addicts.

Chaza"l do not (generally) talk of this. They give eitzos how to overcome the YH. They talk of Torah being meigin umatzli from the YH. They talk of s'char for winning and not giving in. They say Hashem helps us win (ilmolei ozro), but we are still the main agent, of course. They talk of the difference between Avraham Avinu (whose initials are AA - heh!) and Noach. Noach walked "ess hoElokim" with Hashem - he needed Hashem to help him every single step of the way completely...yet Avrohom - the father of the Yidden - walked davka lifnei Hashem (before Him, in front of Him), meaning that he stood and fought. And as Yaakov continued (about whom it says: 'asher podoh ess Avrohom') was called "one who struggles and wins" by the bad malach himself.

But addicts who use the 12 steps are not winners or beaters. The 12 steps talk of nothing regarding alcohol after the first words of step 1. There is nothing in the 12 steps that revolves around beating the desire to drink.

All that happens is that we come to them with the inability to drink any more. We have come to know that know we can stop - the problem is that we have stopped a thousand times! What we know we cannot stay stopped. Like a man who says "Talk to me, I am a marriage expert - I have been married six times!" We would not ask him for advice about our marriage, would we? In the same way, we re-quitters are no experts at living without drinking by dint of the fact that we have stopped a thousand times and masturbated ourselves again anyhow, are we? So we do not possess the solution. We with our Torah, we with out yir'as Shomayim, we with our wives to have sex with whenever we really 'need' to...none of it has provided us with the answer till now, has it? No. We addicts have failed.

So, we who decide we are ill, choose to give up. And since we know we have given up many times but do not stay given up, come to see that our problem all along was not women, not men, not our hormones, not porn, not 'the internet', nor our yetzer horas. Our Problem all along was that we had no clue how to live without them.

Sobriety is an addict's Problem, not drinking. There is a total lack of faith that he (or she) can survive without drinking...or lusting/sex/porn, etc.

So the guy who keeps compulsively acting out and keeps finding himself in the cycle again, comes to see how much he is faking his wife, kids, community and friends with his double identity, and still relies on Chaza"l and Torah - is just demonstrating that Torah is failing. I consider that apikorsus to say that Torah is wrong at all. The Torah is perfect and always right. It DOES beat the YH. It DOES save us from it.

Obviously, the problem some people are having is not the YH.

For I have met many dozens of kolel guys and great chassidishe yidden of all ages who are habitually masturbating, using prostitutes, etc.

So if you really believe you are an addict, then you will have no problem walking into an open Alcoholics Anonymous meeting - with your yarmulkeh on and introducing yourself as Moishe or whatever the real name your wife and friends call you is - and sitting right next to shiksas and goyim and other yidden together and being one of them. For you are. And they have the solution.

The Torah has no solution for crazy people and is not meant to.

Derech Eretz is truly kodma laTorah.

Hatzlocha dear chaver in getting deeper into the real, unaddicted life you have, in sharing chizzuk for all like you in what works, and also in not twisting yourself into anything you are not.

Lots of love,

Dov

Thank you Dov. You speak with great clarity, but I am still not clear. I don't know what category I am in, nor do I know how important it is to know. According to what you are saying, I suppose it is important to know, in order to know which approaches will work and which won't. Every time I see a woman I have a troublesome experience. But I have read about certain tzadikim that they avoided even the most subtle negligible contact with women and were pained with even the slightest encounter. Is it possible that all of us are basically the same but just the level of syagim needed vary somewhat. If you aren't right then in order to answer your question of why the eitzos of The Torah don't help, we would have to say that we have no hassaga of what level of syagim should be implemented and maybe the syagim we are making are not even nearly in the ballpark. R' Aharon Belzer z"l avoided seeing any even fully tzniusdig woman even at a distance. Do you think if you would get used to doing that you would still have a problem? The Gemara says that men are not present when women bake because they need to roll up their sleeves to knead the dough. Now clearly they don't need to roll up till the shoulder. The elbow, or less is probably more than enough. But men avoid being there. So if someone watches the news and sees the shiksas anchorwomen dressed to kill and then he has lust issues, is he sick or is he normal? And then after not making the proper syagim, he might be aroused just out of the blue, but maybe it's because of all that he sees all the time, and maybe if he would make the necessary syagim, the problem would resolve.

I am not asserting this as my opinion but I am asking the question to you, Dov, and all the chaverim.

Hashivah,
Try readin' the beginnin' of the big book, or the 20 questions in the white book.
See if it clarifies anythin' for you.

b'hatzlachah

If someone answers yes to any of those 20 questions, that means he's an addict? Some of those questions would seem to include anybody who isn't always perfectly disciplined even if he isn't quite an addict. Such as 4. Have you ever tried to stop or limit doing what you felt
was wrong in your sexual behavior? And some of those questions could be yes at isolated times but no at most times, so if that's the case is he an addict?

The second part of my post, you didn't respond to. I know you don't like philosophizing but I'm wondering if it isn't actually a practical discussion.

I don't think if you answer one question positive, you are an addict, but if you answer in the affirmative to many of them, then there is a good chance. I would also advise readin' the first few sections of big book with the stories there; it can really help you.

Regardin' the second question, i'm sorry, i don't really understand. If you want my answer (not sure why you would), ask it in a simple straightforward way; thanks.

b'hatzlachah

To put my question simply in response to Dov's post I ask the following. Maybe The Torah does give the solution for addicts and maybe sex addicts don't have an illness per se but since sex is something which chazal say is nefsho shel adam mechamdeso you need real serious syagim and maybe addicts have never really given The Torah's approach a fair try and maybe it would help.

maybe.
maybe not.
many of us here have invested many hours, days, weeks, months and years tryin' to beat this thing.
Did we do enough?
Who knows?
Has Dov and others heard from many who have claimed to try many thin's? Yes, they have.

Has anyone tried what I am suggesting? If yes please explain in some detail.

I am sure you have read many threads here.
people tried fastin, takin' oaths, removin' glasses in street, malkus, knasos, punishments if they touch their private parts, penalties, kvittels, therapists, teshuvah, rabbeinu yonah, etc.