cordnoy wrote:


amen v'amen.

lavi wrote:


Your addiction can come up with a million reasons not to pray. Allowing G-d into your life thru program and recovery is about changing the way you think and view the world.

But you can let Him into your life at ANY moment you CHOOSE simply by opening your mouth and talking to Him. No "level", no "zchus" necessary. Just His wonderful rachmanus.

Stop making excuses.

You can pray to Him whenever you choose is a truth no doubt; sadly though - that is not bringin' Him into your life.
and yes - it is on some counts, but I think there is ways to go.

Metal King wrote:



thank-you for input, mr. mk,
first on a little update, i am on a 10 day movie free period,
and it does feel good,
about davening,
i find from personal experience, the amazing benefits of davening are wonderful and i appreciate the gift that Hashem has given me,
but i feel that although i have davened/spoken to Hashem about my condition,
the main battle is much more than that,
although davening is a tool to combat the evil in me,
i don't believe that that is the main focus of my recovery,
it is up to me, with siatta dishmaya, to make it or break it,
the exact tools, can be discussed if you like,
and i would like to compare my situation to what Hashem told Moshe by kriyas yom suf,
"why are you screaming before me, MOVE!" "this isn't a time for tefilla"

Actually Dov liked my post I never said you shouldn't use the tools but they only get you so far! PS by tools i don't mean the recovery program (i.e. 12 steps) i mean like Taspic and filters.

But to be honest, I have NO idea what i am talking about! So I'll just be quiet now.... I am just an addict trying to find his way!

All I can say is that movies can be so harmful, and not only for religious reasons. Boruch Hashem, I haven't watched any movies in well over 20 years, although the internet sure threw me for a curve!

This is embarrassing, but I will share it to demonstrate how just one line from one movie caused me untold harm in my marriage, which took a long time to repair (as anyone who has read my thread would know). Don't worry, I will censor the line, but I want everyone to get the idea of the harm that can be caused by movies.

It was in the early 1980's. The movie was rated R. A "customer" tells the zonah that he wants to ______ her ______. By most people's standards, it was a weird request, so the audience laughed. I may have laughed along with everyone else, but for me it was different: there was nothing weird about the request - it involved a body part that has always been a major turn-on for me, and I had never thought of doing what this person requested. This line became a staple for me every time I would act out - I would say it repeatedly. (By the way, the movie didn't show the customer actually doing what he requested, it was merely the verbal request that so messed me up).

After I got married, I avoided saying this line to my wife for some time (although I was obsessing about this body part, nevertheless). After about a year, I started saying this line repeatedly as I would climax, just as I had done before marriage when acting out. Finally, my wife got tired of it, but I couldn't stop myself. Things got worse and worse. Finally, my wife was so turned off from relations, that things became a nightmare, as discussed in my thread. For those familiar with my thread (link is below), you know that, B"H, things turned around completely 2 years ago, but it took years and it took a lot of hard work.

Just just one line from one movie changed my life remarkably for the worse! Something to think about.

guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/119441-Breaking-Out-of-the-Cycle

lavi wrote:


Mazel tov on your movie free streak! As your chevra loves to say, KOMT!

As to your response on my post, you mixed my original response to you, with my next response to Cordnoy.

You said you had time to kill and troubles to escape from, so i suggested Move! Go do Gemilut chasadim, (just as you pointed out Hashem said to Moshe) i then mentioned that if you didn't have enough time for that, offer a personal prayer of gratitude. This is a spiritual exercise that helps you focus less on your troubles, your have-nots, and more on your haves. SA being a spiritual sickness, not about Lust, makes this a completely relevant endeavor.

Second, Cordnoy then responded about Dov not approving of using prayer right away until after having used tools of recovery, to which you responded Amen V'amen. This is similar to his other posts about not feeling on the level to personal pray yet.

To this, I respond: Go look in DuddyM's thread about lusting after a neighbor. Dov's main advice was to personally pray for her! He doesnt say only after 12 steps, nothing. Right away! Now if he's telling a newbie to pray, what's he going to say to you two who have been here awhile?
Lets say you don't hold of Dov. You hold of SA in general. In the white book when it first gives an example of sponsorship, it says "they prayed together" (sponsor and sponsee) Cordnoy said he's ready for a sponsor. I guess he's ready to start praying with him too then and i don't think the book meant Mincha.
Lets say you don't hold of SA. You hold of Chazal. Chazal said G-d desires the prayers of the righteous. We've also seen numerous quotes in the chizuk emails about how all of us addicts struggling to return to Hashem are called righteous! Seems to me G-d desires your prayers for help as well. Each day. Today. Hayom.
Lets say you don't hold of Chazal. You hold of common sense.
Each time people post here and you like the post you click Thank You.
Don't you owe Hashem a personal Thank You for each and every favor? Where is the bracha for when i make it back to my house and realized Hashem kept my eyes clean? What's the bracha for thanking Him for helping me successfully spent the afternoon learning instead of wasting time or worse? What's the bracha for thanking Him when He helps me share at a meeting when I just couldn't start? Chazals introduction of set davening and bravhot were not supposed to be the end all be all of praying. They were a platform and guideline of how to properly pray to Him! (Indeed, that's why if you forget Mashiv Haruach but haven't said Ado- mechayei meisim you can still insert it! You are allowed to add your own thoughts to Shemona Esrai from Ata Chonein thru Shema Koleinu related to each bracha! I even saw one guy on here who said he says thank you for three things during Modim)

You're right. In the moment, kriat yam suf, triggers everywhere walking in front of you, don't just stare and pray. Move! Turn your gaze away! Take off your glasses if you wear them! But immediately after those actions, do like Dov and pray for her/them. And Thank Hashem for guarding your eyes and keeping you clean.

Sobriety and the 12 steps are to help us realize we are incapable of handling this addiction without Hashem.
Recovery is when we realize the whole truth: we are incapable of anything without His help. He runs EVERYTHING.

Remember that the category title for this post is labeled "what works for me". So you gotta do what works for YOU! This isn't halacha lmoshe misinai, so what works for one guy, may or may not work for you. So try to daven if you want, i personally do and i find that it's critical to surrendering myself to Hashem. Do what makes sense to you.

shomer bro wrote:


The "What works for me" is NOT a free-for-all. There are proven yeses and nos, its more a question of personalizing the action or step. Ill give you an example because I know I didnt explain that well. Take ogling women on the street. I don't think you'll find anyone who admits theyre an addict who truthfully says it works to ogle women on the street. In fact, I've heard from more than one addict on here that if you CAN do that, you're NOT an addict.

So there is a "What only works for everyone." Everyone who is an addict must avoid ogling trigger women on the street. "What works for me" is how you go about doing that. Some daven for the trigger, some take off their glasses, some think of her as treif...those are the individual methods.

Now take davening. Again, I'll clarify: I dont mean Shacharit, Mincha, Maariv or standard brachot. I mean anything one says to Hashem in his own words, in his preferred language at any time. If you before you eat an orange, you say, "Thank You Hashem for this orange" and then say Borei Pri Ha'eitz, your first statement counts as 1.5 seconds of personal prayer.

"What only works for everyone" is personal prayer. You simply cannot have a relationship with someone, especially the One, without talking to Him.
The "What works for me" part is the individual's words and approach. The methodology. How you Thank Him, what you thank Him for, how you ask for His help, what you ask for help with, Surrendering, thats the individual part. Each person speaks in their own manner, sing a song to Him if you like!

Again, to prove my point: I dont think you'll find a single addict in recovery who says they don't pray or that prayer is not an integral part of reaching recovery at ANY level of SA. Thats the EVERYONE part. But what you will find is each addict with their own method of prayer. Thats the "what works for me" individual part.

Now, I know, someone's gonna jump on me and say Aha! How MUCH I pray is an individual part as well! That is true. But both Judaism and SA speak about eventually living every moment with G-d. I would imagine that entails a highly large amount of speaking. Do you have any good friends you'd hang out with and wouldn't kibbitz with all day? I understand thats a high level. Probably one that takes a lifetime. Better get started talking Today.

Hatzlacha!

Good points. Interestingly enough, the last time i mentioned davening tp Hashem in our own words, someone jumped all over my post to say that that's not an effective tool to fight the yetzer hara. I just meant that just because one of the moderators here says X, then it must be so. In Judaism we're supposed to try to think for ourselves as well. But thank you for correcting me before and you are 100% correct.

Metal King wrote:


he does speak about God, but only after one uses the tools of recovery.
God this and God that won't get us too far (if you're an addict) as big as God is.
When you work a recovery program, then you can allow God into your life.-cordnoy



thanks again mk for your feedback,
i feel you truly care about out situation,

i am a bit uncomfortable with your definition of recovery,
it would seem to me that it includes much more then realization,
maybe you mean it is a part of it?

about the davening, i don't think cordnoy means to that davening shouldn't be used as a part of recovery,
and what he says about "after one uses the tools" he means at the same time as one is doing SOMETHING about his situation, this is because he believes the just saying Hashem this and Hashem that won't get you far,
and i do relate to this very much,
and as frum people as a whole do speak to Hashem, i think most addicts do their part in this, [although reminders are useful], and still are lacking other tools,
and btw, you may find it useful to know that in siman 119 and m.b, there are places in the middle of shemona esrei, where one is not permitted to add personal prayers.

Thank you

Keep in mind that Cordnoy has little idea as to what he is talkin' about.

cordnoy also spoke and speaks to Duvvy b'arichus, and he thinks that davenin' for that woman might not be such a good idea; and that is because she is not just a sex object in his eyes - there is an emotional bond or attachment, and davenin' for her might even be worse, but there is a sevara the other way as well.

This, I explained to Dov on the phone once a while back, and at the time, it was relevant to my situation.

I don't have too much of a handle on this prayin'/davenin' stuff, so I will leave it at that for the moment. The conversation, however, seems to be a good one.

Keep it up!

b'hatzlachah

shomer bro wrote:


Do you know why they jump at you? That's their YH trying to stop you from getting close to Hashem! The YH doesn't want us talking to Hashem. His whole job is to keep us away from Hashem.

Cordnoy, what you mentioned about Duvid disagreeing with Dov's advice would be a point to prayer needing to be individualized. You still need to pray on your own. Just maybe not for your trigger.

Lavi, thank you for recognizing that i really am just trying to help. I 100% believe/know that personal prayer is an integral part of my and any addict's journey to recovery. Regarding my definition, when i said "realize", i meant not just know intellectually but to have it firmly ingrained in one's attitude, emotions, and thoughts. One no longer reacts to situations the way one did before. They see Hashem in everything. They rarely react with negative emotions to challenges because they've learned to fully let go and let G-d.

Does that better explain it for you? I can go further :-)

just for the record...Cordnoy was speakin' in third person and although duvvy agreed, it was Cordnoy who thought like that.

And of course, prayer is a necessity...that's no chidush at all...the discussion at hand was to pray for the neighbor in that context.

Music is the pen of the soul. When you listen to music, the composer's essence and values are being transmitted over to you. The particular lyrics can also have an affect on how we think. Movies have the same affect. The values of the creators of the movie penetrate your soul and gives you a false sense of reality. They start to make you think differently and causes confusion. Why watch a movie whens its soul aim is to take you out of Hashems beautiful world.

My advice when you have free time to watch a movie would be to go onto torahanytime.com very recommended website. Rabbi Wallerstein has a lot to say on movies...