Boruch, it appears that your lengthy comment is summarized with this last paragraph.

I can tell you now personally, and halachachly, that today in our dor, we don't have time to look for chachomos. And, all of the great mussar seforim of the Rishonim, are way above the heads of most of us. Yes, they may be good for chizuk, and I do believe that the Lamed Vav tzadikim who are so far far away from this filthy disease, they can understand and grow from these holy seforim. They can fine tune themselves, and understand the minds and neshomos of great rishonim.
  We don't have time for chochmos. We need results and we need the results NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

This means, every, (almost) every way that a yid can stay clean for just one more day, or What ever it takes for him to  get out of the sewer, no matter what (almost) helps him to do it. He is mechoiv to do it. No matter how silly or how stupid the thing is that he is doing. If it will help him, he must do it-try it, and NOW. Even if it is a placebo affect and not real. If he doesn't do it,(when there just might be a chance of success,  then HE is the one responsible.
    And, many times it is the Y"H telling us, "this is so stupid", or ("now is the time to be a real "frummer")", so he starts asking sheilos and, says, "where do we find this in chazal"..... etc, and in fact it is Mr. Menuval behind it all.
  Someone that is of a low level of intelligence, the menuval fills his head with stupidities. Someone with a very high level of chachamah, the menuval confuses him with more and more sechel and chochmah. Reminds me of the sipor in the siporei Hamaseoyot, about the Tam,and the Chacham. The Tam, with the very low level of sechel,went straight to Hashem, and the Chachom, did EVERYTHING in his life using his Chachamah. In the end he asked,"Is there really a Melech in the world".

It is very severe to think of Torah while in the bathroom releaving oneself, YET, I saw in the sefer Taharas Hakodesh, that if the Yetzer starts filling one's mind with tumah, then even there it IS permitted to think in learning. WE see how severe this addiction is, and at what costs we are expected to take, in order to avoid it.

And the frummer, (the Y"H) will come and say, "what, to think in learning in the bathroom"?? So, in this case, who is the frummer, and who is the chachom?

We are in a dor where we have no more time left for Chachmos. Only for results....no matter what it takes, (almost).

We are living in a dor of "Ais La"Osos."

Bourch, I would invite you to read Rabbi Twersky's book, "Self Improvement?, I'm Jewish!!!!".  I can't find my document but I have sources in the Rambam and in Shaarei Teshuva that are the same as the 12 steps.  I will be happy to give you those sources.  My point is for me, I needed the Torah backup to believe that I could recover through the 12 steps.  Otherwise I was very uncomfortable in the groups and saying all the prayers, etc. You can read these Jewish sources all you want, but unless we have other people to share with and speak to, to let out our shame and guilt, it won't work.

I have someone who I sponsor, not in a 12 step program (someone on this forum) who has never been to a 12 step program and has been clean and sober now for 4 MONTHS just by talking his story and his shame out to me and having discussions.  So you are correct, it can be done without the 12 steps.  BUT it took the courage to get on the phone group and listen to a certified WOMAN (omg!!!) counselor tell him that if he stopped for 90 days, the neuro pathways in his brain would change and it would get easier.  And I believe he will confirm this as being true.

We can all intellectualize all of this until Mashiach comes but what is important to me is that we all help each other get better, sober and recover. That means living a life which is consistent with our own inner core beliefs and those of Hashem and Yiddishkeit, where we can handle disappointments and challenges without acting in our addiction and face the world proud in knowing ourselves.

Dear Boruch,

First of all, I have noticed many times on this thread that you are being misunderstood. So I just want to sympathize.

Secondly, I have a big problem with your claim, that "they" don't put responsibility in the forefront. I think it's very clear that if that was true, they would not succeed at all! It's obvious from the Torah, from "seichel" and from observation, that if you don't take full responsibility, you won't get anywhere. In-fact you won't even get any Siyata Dishmaya at all.

It's possible that the author wrote it that way for religious reasons, while in practice they do emphasize taking responsibility.
Or, for all I know, maybe soon after he wrote it, he made a change in his philosophy without changing the text.

But it just plain can't possibly be, that they are mizalzel in this issue. It's like saying that they're making bread without flour.

me wrote on 24 Jan 2009 20:35:


I am not looking for chochmos at all. This is a personal journey that you can follow on my Wall of Honor journal. There I will post messages that are very easy to relate to, very easy to implement. Messages that are not coming from someone who has only treated people with addiction but never suffered from it himself, in other words someone with no personal experience of addiction. You can read messages from someone fighting addiction right now and documenting for others how they too can do the same, regardless of their background.

Now you are certainly correct that not everyone has the ability to apply the words of the Chachomim to their addiction. You may wonder what makes me think I am qualified to attempt to take Chazal and create a system. Here's the answer. Hashem has been very good to me. He has given me Rabbeim in Mussar who are unparalleled. He has given me understanding of the words of Torah far beyond my level of intelligence and far beyond any merit on my own part.

Of course you are entitled to ask why, if I have a system that works, why was I succumbing to addiction as recently as last Monday? The truth is that what I know today I have known for a long time but, such is man's ability to delude himself that it was not until last Monday that I realized that I really was addicted. Until then I made excuses, Yetzer Hora, stress, occasional lapses etc. When I discovered last Monday that I was indulging in forbidden activities and was unable to pull away despite very important scheduled commitments that I just let lapse I knew that I was addicted. At that point I knew that half-hearted measures would not work and I am now applying everything that I have on every level to break this addiction.

Here is just one example of how I am using every aspect of my being and personality to fight this fight. I joined this community because by nature I am proud and competitive and I knew that in addition to all the support I could get here I would get even more by fighting the good fight in the most demonstrative way, without pulling any punches.

I could have made all the points I have made thus far with less fanfare and less noise. I could have left out half of what I wrote here and there would still have been much for people to read. I could have avoided ruffling feathers. I didn't have to explode onto the forum in the way I did. I could have, from the outset, explained very carefully how far from being what, at least until now, must have seemed like a brash and bravado attempt to smash addiction, I am actually engaging in a very deliberate, well considered, strictly choreographed and carefully orchestrated strategy. And yet, precisely because of my personality, I deliberately did not do so, in order to "set myself up" so that I would put my self-image and self-respect so much on the line that indulging in my former addiction would be the last thing in the World that I want to do.

Habo leTaher messayin oso min Hashomayim and Chasdei Hashem so far it is working far beyond any expectation. Over the last 38 years I have stopped many times for varying amounts of time, but now, for the first time in my life, B"H, even though it is still less than a week but for the first time in my life I am avoiding my addiction like the plague.

My journey on this board is not just for myself. It is for us all. I am here to show everyone that they can do it too. Let them follow my log and join me in the fight against addiction.

me wrote on 24 Jan 2009 20:35:


It is very sad that so many good Jews as yourself were never taught Torah in a practical and ready-to-implement way, so that they would understand that Torah is for much more than chizuk. Torah does the complete job and it does it in a way that is far superior to anything else that is out there.

me wrote on 24 Jan 2009 20:35:


If you had read everything I have posted here on this thread you would see that I agree with you entirely. You can only use what is out there. Anyone who is currently using the 12 steps with success, keep it up. Ein sofek motzei midei vaday... you are not guaranteed that you will get the same from the approach that I am describing here and so just keep going.

If anyone has not yet started the 12 steps, or is not happy with their results then in my opinion don't waste any more time on an inefficient and poorly designed method, you'll do much better joining us here on this thread and on my log and together we'll get the results the 12 step people can't even dream of.

me wrote on 24 Jan 2009 20:35:


That's why YOU should start reading my log on the WOH and follow it daily beginning right now.

guardureyes wrote on 23 Jan 2009 14:22:


You want the disagreement? I say that it is impractical, wrong-headed and bad to begin by saying I am powerless and cannot manage. Hashem can. He should do it for me.

While I can agree that all of those statements have truth to them they make a very misguided way to fight addiction.

Looking at the history and theology makes it much clearer.

The Oxford Program had a good reason to target their ministry at alcoholics. Rav Shimshon Refoel Hirsh explains that to serve in the Beis Hamikdosh, kohanim had to be at their peak strength, between 30 and 50, and had to be physically complete. He explains that other religions particularly Christians fill their pews with the old, sick and infirm because they prey on the needy as they are the easiest to draw in to their religion. Judaism however does not do this. We have to appeal to the young, energetic and successful.

Now let's get back to the Oxford Program. Their religion was based on total submission. Not a very easy sell in the US with it's success driven message. And so, without much of a natural constituency among anyone living life normally here in the US they took their message to the most desparate. The alcoholics. Those who were at the edge of despair. And they succeeded in persuading them to join them in surrender.

But, they were Christians and had not learned Chovos Halevovos. They did not know that there are two forms of submission to Hashem. Anovo and shiflus. Rabbi Avigdor Miller Zt'l explained that shiflus is lowliness, typically found in animals, like a big strong bull who, subjugated, submits to the will of a young boy with a stick, because it is too unintelligent to realise it's own strengths. That is not the type of surrender that Hashem wants. That is the surrender of the weak and the desperate, that is the surrender of the Oxford Program and it is not very meaningful. 

Anovo on the other hand is only found in people and involves a person recognizing all of his strengths and potentials, recognizing that Hashem has given him the free will and ability to change the World and Destiny and with all the recognition, out of strength he surrenders to Hashem. Not because man is weak and powerless. But because strong as he is, the only being with free will and holier than Angels, man is still absolutely nothing compared to Hashem's absolute Awesomeness, Power and Might.

So you have two ways to begin the fight against addiction, one that in its essence (yes, you can twist yourself up like a lokshen, ignore the history, ignore the message and tone that the words emanate, launch massive apologetics and explain it all away, but you only fool yourself, you are not going to fool me and BE"H you will not be able to fool many other readers) in typical Christian style preaches weakness, capitulation and shiflus. And you have a Torah approach that preaches strength and potential and a recognition of the Might of Hashem that comes out of strength. That's one of the many reasons that I say the 12 steps system is very dumb. If you agree with me then I am most gratified.

guardureyes wrote on 23 Jan 2009 14:22:


I am not expecting you to stop recommending the 12 steps in favor of a Torah approach that is still in the making. I do expect, however, that if when BE"H 90 days are up on my WOH, Rabbi Twerski were to come on here to the WOH on this forum, he would warmly endorse the Torah approach developed here, not just because it's right, not just because it works but because it is such a perfect fit with his own message of self-esteem.

guardureyes wrote on 23 Jan 2009 14:22:


Unlike kriyas Yam Suf and as is explicit in countless places in Chazal, in the fight against the yetzer hora, ki setzei lamilchomo al oyevecho -- when you go out in battle against your enemy -- it is we who go out in battle, it is we who turn out of strength to Hashem and it is He who then helps us conquer the Yetzer Hora.

Elya wrote on 25 Jan 2009 01:37:


You do not need to bother, I am very intimately familiar with everything you are referring to, but much as I try to explain it to you, I am not succeeding very well in getting my point across and I will take the blame. That said, perhaps if you read my response to Guard above you will begin to understand what I am talking about. The issue is not whether there is truth in each of the individual statements in the 12 steps. Of course there is.

But there is a lot more truth in the statement "Reshoim go to Gehinnom" than in any of the 12 statements in the 12 steps and yet I would not recommend making that the first step in a program to beat addiction. I would make that maybe number 9, 10, 11 or 12. So, hopefully you are beginning to get the idea.

Elya wrote on 25 Jan 2009 01:37:


Elya as you have said there is nothing personal here. I have nothing but unqualified admiration for you, Guard and the many heroes on this board and I stand in awe of all of you. I am on this forum precisely to get the group support that you are talking about (for me group support just takes a different form than most) and I pray to Hashem to help me organize "Giborei" (Giborei Koach) groups in the way that I described earlier on this thread.

Elya wrote on 25 Jan 2009 01:37:


Nothing abstract or intellectual here, I invite you and everyone else reading this thread who thinks that it's all intellectual gymnastics to follow my log on the WOH daily, messages from someone currently fighting addiction right now and someone documenting in real time for others how they too can do the same.

That should not be too theoretical for anyone. See you over there.

battleworn wrote on 25 Jan 2009 11:41:


battleworn, good for you for getting what the others missed. As far as the sympathy, it is much appreciated but you would be better saving it for those who need it a little more. In case you have not yet noticed I am enjoying all of this immensely. It may sound a little self-centered but as I will B'ezras Hashem -- with Hashem's help explain on my log in due course, you need to learn how to co-opt the yetzer hora and get him to join forces with you in the war against addiction.

battleworn wrote on 25 Jan 2009 11:41:


Oy vey. I spoke too soon. Now you too have misunderstood me. Maybe the thread is getting very long and there are a lot of words here. But I made that very point myself and even more pointedly than you did. If the 12 steps didn't advocate responsibility then they would give them over to Hashem to do the 12 steps!!!

So let's make it much simpler. 12 steps are steps they are not statements. They are a program. A program needs to choose its messages and format wisely. If there were any wisdom at all in the 12 steps the program would begin with the very first step being a statement expressing in the clearest language I take responsibility for my addiction. Not yet convinced, go over to my log on WOH, if you have not yet done so, and even if you have already done so, don't stop there, follow the whole thing for the next 12 weeks. Then we'll talk.

battleworn wrote on 25 Jan 2009 11:41:


a mechaye!!! tirutzim and peshotim taytsching op pshat in the Born Again Christians!!! If only they knew, they would really kvell!!!

Seriously speaking, as mentioned earlier in the thread the author of the 12 steps, Bill Wilson, known as Bill W wrote that he took the system of the steps straight from a Born Again Christian group called the Oxford Program who had helped him with his alcoholism. So the question is not on Bill W it is on the Oxford Program. If you are really interested in understanding why they didn't make responsibility a central step and why they didn't verbalize it, it's because their real agenda was less healing alcoholics than prosletyzing alcoholics who were most vulnerable to the central message of their religion -- powerlessness and submission. Beginning the steps with a clear message of taking responsibility doesn't fit so well with the powerlessness bit and so while of course they believed in responsibility they didn't want to verbalize it. See more details in my response to Guard above.

There are many highly intelligent people on this form.

I would just like to say something poshut again. Someone who is trying to keep all of the torah, and that includes more than some people may admit, Kedsoshim Tehiyu comes to mind, will be following the Steps automatically, or at least to the extent that they are indeed in the torah. Right? This idea is an oversimplification, but nonetheless worthy of consideration at least.

[.

It is very severe to think of Torah while in the bathroom releaving oneself, YET, I saw in the sefer Taharas Hakodesh, that if the Yetzer starts filling one's mind with tumah, then even there it IS permitted to think in learning. WE see how severe this addiction is, and at what costs we are expected to take, in order to avoid it.

And the frummer, (the Y"H) will come and say, "what, to think in learning in the bathroom"?? So, in this case, who is the frummer, and who is the chachom?


[/quote]


This business of "addiction" can get carried too far. I saw something similar (it may have been the exact same thing.) somwhere - about the permissibility of thinking of divrei torah to chase away these thoughts
even in a place in which that otherwise would be prohibited. This applies to anyone, not just addicts, and one who finds himself thinking these thoughts does not have to be an "addict".  [Nevetheless if someone is helped by considering himself an addict I would not recommend not doing so, [b]if [/b] the benefits outweigh the negatives.]

Also what was that you said about "Chochmos"?

Chazak wrote on 27 Jan 2009 03:11:


Go visit my posts on the Wall of Honor... I am not following the steps at all (obviously) and am doing just as much kedoshim tihyu as anyone else on there...

Boruch,
I am reading your posts. Slowly though. I can't read them too fast for fear of missing the meaning. They are written well, diplomatically (because this site is about the 12 steps), and quite thoroughly cover the issues. They desereve to be read with a clear head. I don't know who is right about this issue of the TS, maybe everyone who has thought it out honestly is, but I wish I could write (and think) as well as you.

If you can't write and think as clear as Boruch, stick to the 12-Steps. They are Shava Lechol Nefesh. That's the beauty of them. Boruch's approach may be better and smarter, but you have to be a brilliant person with iron will, for it to work. In today's Chizuk e-mail (#391) we presented a ten step program that is FRUM - and essentially the same as the 12-Steps, just in different words :-)

You gave away my secret.

References to the 12 steps in Shaarei Teshuva, written by Rabbeinu Yonah

Step 1:  Perek 10  Ikar Harishon  Perek 12  Ikar 3,  Perek 16, Ikar 5, Perek11 Ikar 6

Read the entire Ikur 9 on Lust.

Step 3: Perek 29, Ikar 8

Step 4: Perek 36, Ikar 11
Step 5:  viduy - Yom Kippur
Step 8:  Perek 44, Ikar 16
Step 9: Perek 35, Ikar 10
Step 10: Perek 48 Ikar 18
Step 12: Perek 50, Ikar 20

guardureyes wrote on 28 Jan 2009 00:35:


That's a cute one. Good old sleight of the hand there...

So now you really see it coming, yes, sure enough, here it is, the Mr Nice Guy bit was nice while it lasted, because you better believe it, boruch's tiger is about to re-emerge with a vengeance, Vesuvius is about to erupt, Nagasaki and Hiroshima are nothing compared to...

Jokes aside, I do have a massive bombshell for this forum, and that is probably an understatement. I have a bombshell unlike anything that I have posted until now.

I have one sentence to say here and I will explain the rest in a separate thread. Yes, this thread will continue to focus on an approach that is free of the 12 steps and an approach that is far superior to the 12 steps. That said, and here comes the bombshell...

But let me first make something very, very clear (I am sorry to build up the suspense but I really have something important to say first). I say this in the most categorical terms, I have not in any way changed my opinion on anything I have written in this thread. I may have tamed the tone, thanks to the good advice of Guard and Ano, but the opinions and the underlying passion are unchanged. And what I am about to do does not come out of any crisis, desparation or surrender.

That said, I have taken someone's advice (I got the advice last night) and I have made specific arrangements and scheduling to participate, at least once, in the very near and immediate future in a secular group that meets regularly and works on sexual addiction using the 12 steps.

Interested in more? I'll post shortly on a different thread in this What works for me board.

That IS a bomb Shell. Good on you.

However, here's some advice (and if you don't agree with it, don't bother going - in my opinion):
1) Don't go with pre-defined notions or greivences. Leave your heart and mind OPEN.
2) Don't go with the intention of seeing what you can find WRONG with it.
3) Take the kid gloves please. They don't like tigers running loose over there  :D.
4) Remember that Rabbi Twerski, who you wrote is an "Adom Gadol Me'od", is a strong advocate of the program.
5) And one last thing, they say it takes at least 6 meetings to really see if they are for you.

So good luck and keep us posted.