dov yea much better
tell me dov
is it posible somone should manage to feel porn and masturbation are just a little problem, and not to do a big deal about it?
(not more than a few lines please)

Yes, it is.

There are plenty people who move through life enjoying schmutz and masturbation the way most of us enjoy (cholov Yisroel) chocolate. They seem to do OK, for the most part.

The Frummeh yid will respond: What!? Are you crazy!? It's exploitation of women! It's murder of future children! It's this and it's that...and they are right, of course. It is.

But plenty people get along fine using these unhealthy and destructive toys.

Addicts do not. These toys become a problem in living life until they discover they have to quit, but also discover that they cannot.

Uh-oh.

That is who the 12 steps is for.

Tool long an arichus?

hey dov thanks for the answer
but tell me the reason why someone should wanna stop is also מצד גשמיות?

a גוי would also wanna stop? why? he makes sure he only waches porn when his wife cant know, in office etc, why should he wanna stop?

by the way dov can u cut this thread and put it in the original one? this thread is a mistake its not the original i dont care if u delete it completly and u answer me in the other one

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Feb 2011 12:24:


www.guardyoureyes.org/?p=2403

Yes, actually 90% of the addicts that I know in SA are goyim, and only a few of them are religious goyim. (The religious ones generally believe that masturnbation is a sin and that porn is wrong, too.) In fact, sorry if this is trigerring to others, but there are women in SA, too, and all of them consider masturbation as their bottom line behavior just like men do. Your question would make no sense out of that at all, because what could be so bad about a woman doing that? There is no zera levatola!

Ella what....? Why do they go there? Why do they want to stop? This is your question, I think.

I have actually met zero - yes, zero - guys who are in recovery like mine who are purely motivated by frumkeit or morality. In my experience, the only ones who get better are the ones who cannot take doing this terrible aveiro any more because it messes up their life in some way. Their recovery, like mine, is selfish. In AA they call it 'enlightened self-interest'. It is the same exact method the RMCh"L uses in Ch 1 of Messilas Yeshorim where he lays it all out and proves that

1- ein odom meis vechatzi ta'avosav b'yado;
2- you are no smarter than anyone else and will not beat the system, smarty pants;
3- life has all sorts of difficulties - and then you die anyway; so it's a waste of your time! And -
4- kol tzaddik nichveh meichupaso shel chaveiro - if you are jealous of other people's great money, gorgeous wife, fantastic kavod, etc., then think how it will drive you crazy when you get in Olam ha'Emess and see the s'char to everyone else is more than yours?!

So the RMCh"L uses enlightened self-interest to motivate a yid to be frum. Hashem uses it in the Torah when He says we'll have it good in Olam hazeh with riches, kavod, and (not get thrown out of) Eretz Yisroel, etc.

Same thing here. The only thing that is really valuable to anybody is something a person sees he needs.

This might sound mean, but I believe it: Frum people who are upset about the terrible aveiro they are doing - yet do not stop - just want to be absolved of the shame of failure, the self-loathing, the guilt of doing the aveiro. Perhaps they also want to be forgiven. [b]They do not really need to stop. They just want to.

The only time we stop something that feels so good is when we need to. And the only thing that makes us need to is when it makes our real life really unmanageable. It is pure selfish self-preservation.

We see this in Iyov. He lost his house, his cattle and farms, even (all) his own children. And he still said, "Nu. Hashem is OK". But wwhen he got tzora'as, something in him cracked. The soton knew it would be a different level and said, "let me give him a negain his own flesh!".

That is the way it works: It can be horrible and terrible - but until it touches our very flesh, we will not crack. Once we see it threatens our survival in some respect, then it suddenly has 'meaning'.

Now, I believe that for some yidden their "survival" includes a good relationship with Hashem, because they are truly deeply ma'aminim amd holy. These people will not need much tzoros to result from their masturbation or porn - they will see where it is leading them and will quit - because that defines 'survival' to them. It is still enlightened self-interest.

But I have not seen many who are in that madreigah. Maybe one.

Thanks to Hashem that I did not get tricked to think I was on that madreigah for very long! I see so many who are and all that happens to them is that they become huge fools as the disease plays with them until they have trashed their lives and the lives of their families, R"l. When those guys come in to the recovery rooms they are a real ugly mess. But even they get better. Nu.

The question is whether the use of schmutz and masturbation is ruining our lives or not. If it is and we find ourselves still using it, then to me that defines an addict. And me'idoch gisa it is the only hope for them  ever getting better - that they see they are made complete fools by their compulsion.

At that point, it becomes crystal clear to the lucky ones, that it doesn't matter is their compulsion is sex, porn and other aveiros - or if it is alcohol, overeating or spending money that are essentially mutar. The piont now is that the way they do it is a problem. It is a disease now.

Get me?

dov wrote on 28 Feb 2011 17:59:


Funny, I just got this via pm:

But that guy is not in the same league of Recovery as Dov's!

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 02 Mar 2011 00:14:


No, he's not. He's a "Lo Yutzlach". While he might find favor in Hashemes eyes, what will people say about him?

Gee, I see I got it all wrong. I thought that Yosef Hatzadik's greatness (the real one) was that he was able to withstand the temptation of Potifar. Turns out that his greatness is all due to his admittance that he had a lust addiction. True the torah command us not to do certain things, but "aim l'madita torah harbeh - al tachzek tov beatzbecha". However if you stop because of the 12 steps - ah! Come sit at Mizrach!

o wrote on 02 Mar 2011 08:08:


Dear o, I am not sure who you are, as I do not spend much time on the forum these days... But somehow I saw this post and a few other posts of yours. I would like to ask that you discontinue to put down the 12-Step Mehalech on this forum in anyway, directly or through sarcasm. I will explain my reasoning once. On GYE, we view the 12-Step Mehalech as a type of medicine. If someone is diabetic, the "mesorah of thousands of years" won't help them serve Hashem if they are passing out because of high sugars. So while the Torah and Mesorah are the only true way to a deep connection to Hashem, someone with broken glasses can't see the Torah. Someone who is sick can't use the Torah the way it was meant to be used. If the room is dark, we can't read from a sefer, can we? And if we don't know Alef-Beis, can we learn Gemara? I'm mixing a bunch of mosholim up here, but the idea is the same in all these parables. The 12-Steps is a tried and proven method that has helped millions of people throughout the world regain SANITY. Once we learn some true humility, honesty and integrity, once we learn how to face the truth about ourselves, that we have an addiction and need help, once we realize we can't do it on our own and we learn how to let Hashem do it for us... then, and only then, can the Torah's power start working through us once again the way Hashem intended it to.

I do not want this to become a long discussion. If you have further questions on GYE's Mehalech, I ask you to please read through the file called "GYE in a Nutshell", and read also tool #14 and #15 of the handbooks (it's in Yiddish now as well). The 12-Steps are not for everyone. They are for those who tried everything in levels 1-5 in the "Nutshell" file and still haven't seen success. But it is vital to have someone like Dov here who keeps repeating his message, so that those who didn't listen to what he was saying at first or didn't understand... over time, if they keep trying everything else and failing, they start to understand what Dov was saying all along... It is vital for his message to heard again and again, so those who keep falling will know there might be something "broken" with them (not with the Torah, but with them)...

On this forum, we are very makpid on not "bashing" any other approaches. We don't allow for people to poke fun of or put down anyone else, or to put down what works for anyone else. And I am also very makpid on the honor or Dov, whom I consider to be one of the most selfless, humble and wisest people I have ever had the zechus to meet (not to mention an oved Hashem and Talmid Chacham.. woops, I just mentioned it).

Thank you for understanding.

And besides your practically a guest here yourself.

Me3 wrote on 03 Mar 2011 21:33:


I'm still winning in posts  ;D www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?action=stats

David/Rage wrote on 03 Mar 2011 21:30:


I know that they bring out some amazing pieces from Dov, but I really had enough of this already - and I'm sure Dov did too. Some people just won't change their minds, and I don't want continued diatribes against the steps on the forum in the name of "Torah" and "Mesorah", which shows they completely misunderstand the whole 12-Step approach. Enough is enough, don't you agree?

guardureyes wrote on 03 Mar 2011 21:36:

That is stuff the GYE Archivist sees. The last 6 Months did you post more than 15 posts per month?

guardureyes wrote on 03 Mar 2011 21:40:



Reb O agrees too:
o wrote on 03 Mar 2011 15:42:

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 03 Mar 2011 21:41:


Maybe not, but I try to send out at least one e-mail every day, to over 1,800 people, with a whole bunch of chizuk to encourage and mechazek them.... Phew... It's exhausting!