SisonYishecha wrote on 20 Jun 2025 04:11:
R' Chaim Shlita
למדנו רבינו
I'll admit that your touched upon a raw nerve, though even beyond that, I'm not completely understanding of what you wrote.
But there are many wonderful Rabbeim who shouldn’t be blamed for doing their best job...
Who decided that their best job, is actually the best job??? ודו"ק
How many of us ( and how many beyond this forum) have been crushed, destroyed, and hurt by Rebbeim who were doing their best, but in all truth have no place in the world of Chinuch???!!!
They should have either remained in Kollel or found a Parnassa as clerks, garbage men, or any other field that doesn't have the risk of ruining Neshamos!
Do they know what it means ארור עושה מלאכת ה' רמיה??
Or do they even know that they are עוסק במלאכת ה' at all????!!
Or did they land the Shtellar because they are the " Shpitz" " Meyuchas", or did they look for a position in Chinuch as a means of a Parnassa, without having any concept of what being a Mechanech entails??
I realize I may have gotten carried away, so I pause to apologize.
My wrath is not directed at you, rather it's frustration and pain of a gifted child and teenager that got knocked by the system, that hasn't (yet) completely healed.
speech that is appropriate for 9th graders to hear, even if perhaps a boy in the class may walk out with some wrong ideas, due to limited understanding and perspective,
This may be up for debate.
Shouldn't a Rebbi know each of his Talmidim individually and be expected to realize if a message may be, or was, misunderstood or received wrong by a Talmid?
I probably wasn't יורד לעומק דעתך, והטעות נמצא בהבנתי.
With greatest respect
SY
Dear Chaver,
First of all: Ouch. I am sorry for your pain.
Although I myself was thankfully not hurt by people in the system, I have watched brothers and friends be wounded and harmed, so I know what you're talking about, unfortunately.
I don't think we are really on such different pages.
Took me a while to find time to write this post in explanation and response.
To clarify: I think there are two completely separate sugyos when discussing the those damaged by "the system".
1. There are cases where Talmidim (or Talmidos) are deeply hurt and damaged, whether religiously, psychologically, and/or emotionally by figures within the Chinuch system. There can be single traumatic encounters or more long-term damaging relationships. Such encounters are generally not excusable. Not realizing that a kid is sensitive and wont be able to handle public humiliation, for example, isn't an excuse.
And yes, I do agree that unfortunately there are individuals who are in the Chinuch system for completely the wrong reasons, and that there are are also those who simply don't have the tools and/or temperament to be good Minchanchim, and this is in part what can result in the above sad and painful situations. People who are hurting others and not helping Talmidim are עושה מלאכת ה׳ רמיה, agreed.
I think that, BH, there has been the development of greater awareness, and better training, as the years go on. People who don’t belong teaching are being noticed and called out (though of course money and connections unfortunately sometimes prevail). Elementary school rabbeim, in particular, are better trained and better qualified than they ever were before. Menahalim and Mashgichim are being trained somewhat in various awareness of various psychological and emotional conditions, there are many frum therapists (not all of whom actually know what they are doing, of course), and it's become far less stigmatizing to go to therapy. There are so many people who have spoken out about their terrible experinces and I think there is greater awareness today. All this doesn’t solve all the problems, of course. We have a long way to go.
I think that is what you're talking about Sison Yishecha.
This topic wasn't the focus of my above comments, at all.
I was referring to a completely different discussion.
2. Bright broached the topic of the fact that "The system" gives over Hashkafa that can lead to a person developing black-and-white thinking about Yiddishkeit that can be extremely limiting and wrong. We'd heard about how Bochurim in "Litvish" yeshiva systems can unfortunately develop into adults thinking and feeling that Hashem is a cruel, unloving referee, who is waiting to "zap" them for every infraction. We read Bright's harrowing account of his religious pain that was the result of his having developed terrible misconceptions about Yiddishkeit, and pseudo-religious thinking. I've spoken to many who have been raised in the Chassidish system who have grown up with terribly harmful misconceptions as well, that have damaged them in the deepest of ways. All this is a damn shame.
There are many people who take great relish in bashing "the system" for this, pointing out how it stifles individuality, exacerbates meaningless conformity with externals, and skips over messages of love, Achdus, and deeper nuances of Avodas Hashem. Many of the individual data points they use to bring out their points are accurate. But I think their overall message is unhelpful and often unproductive. For a many reasons. Here are some of them:
1.
"Just love them" isn't an educational system. I knew the great Rav Dovid Trenk ztzal very well (today is his Yohtzeit, BTW). He personally tempered his Ahava with yirah and discipline. And what he did in Adelphia would not have worked for all of Klal Yisroel.
The naysayers haven't created a viable alternative system that doesn't have holes for people to fall through. They can't and they
never will. Particularly because of my second point:
2.
A system, by definition, is systematic. You can't have a system that is custom made for every individual. It's impossible.
The Chazon Ish said that every yeshiva is a "Sedom Bed". He did his own thing in learning and Avodas Hashem, and he told Rav Chaim Kanievsky to do so. And they became Gedolai Hador. But the Chazon Ish didn't go and shut down Ponevzh and Slabodka. Because Klal Yisroel, as a
Rabbim, for better and worse
needs some type of system, which will
necessarily have limitations.
Room needs to be made for kids who don't fit in the system, and for improving the system. There are a lot of good people within the system who are trying to do both of those important things. It doesn't always work.
It's easy to make critical podcasts about what's wrong, especially if you don't run a Yeshiva with 1000 kids. Try running a very successful Yeshiva and also try fixing all the problems at the same time and then come back and make a podcast about how to do it… you can wait a long time, and you won’t find that podcast out there…
I think you’ll find that the people making a huge positive difference in Klal Yisroel don’t have the time or inclination for podcasts. They’re too busy getting important things done (Rav Yosef Elefant Shlit’a, for example, doesn’t run around talking about what’s wrong. He does what ever he can to make things better, Hashem bless him.)
3.
It's not fair to blame a system for not being something it's not supposed to be and not trying to be.
There are a lot of aspects of this. Among them: What Yeshivos teach. Yeshivos teach young kids. So Rabbeim teach things that are appropriate to their level, according (for the most part) to a mesora. Should Bochurim stay with their high-school perspectives their whole life ? NO!!! Do they sometimes? Unfortunately yes. Is it the responsibility of their Rabbeim to plant the seed for future growth? Sure! My Rabbeim talked constantly about changing and growing in your Hasagos every single year (and day). And I stayed in touch with them and continue to do so (those who are still alive, and new Rabbeim).
But, as I wrote: Balance, perspective, nuance, and subtlety, maturity, acceptance, growth, and courage- these are precious and hard to find and develop in a Talmid. They
are the work of a lifetime. It's not necessarily the failure of a person's rabbeim if the student cuts himself off from further growth. You can bring a horse to the farbrengen but you can't make him drink.
I teach in the system. You who know me here know that i am not one-dimensional. I can only do the best that I can within the limitations of how i can teach. there are conversations I can have here that I can't always have with my talmidim. I still won't quit my other job. .
My father, shlita, is a tremendous Mechaneich. He has years of Talmidim who call him for Hadracha on all matters, and for Chizzuk. He cares more than anyone else I know. Can it be that someone he taught has unfortunately nevertheless developed religiously wrong ideas because they didn't learn one-on-one with him in a personal setting for a few years - I think so. Is that his fault ? No! He's a Rebbe who is limited by the system he teaches in, and so am I, and that's ok. (See ps below)
4.
Most importantly - if you read Bright's original post carefully he writes that the terribly wrong ideas he was living with were for the most part directly effected by the wounds of emotional trauma and abuse. That was the lens through which he heard the Shmoozin and Hashkafos he learned in yeshiva.
He did not write his original post to rail against those who caused him harm, Sison Yishecha, though Hashem knows there's plenty of that to go around. He wrote that he now sees that much of what he was taught actually fits with what he now knows, but he couldn't see it until he met a Gebentche therapist and then a unique Talmid Chochom who helped him heal and then learn to see his Yiddishkeit
through the lens of healing and not the lens of pain.
And to be free to discover new growth.
My point is -
this problem - which i think as a
symptom is somewhat endemic and common in today’s era - isn't necessarily the
fault of the system. It has to do with the generation and its challenges.
Could Bright's Rabbeim who taught him have done differently, not knowing he was the victim of abuse and the pain that seared his internal world? Maybe some of them could. Should we indict the Yeshiva System for what happened to Bright? I think not.
5.
Let’s not attack a “straw man”.Many rabbeim will tell talmidim when to buck the system and when to follow it. My Rabbeim in a Litvish Yeshiva (one of them in particular) introduced me to Chassidus.
Many will tell a boy or girl when they should do something different because it’s better for them.
Believing that there should be a system doesn't mean that you believe everyone should follow it blindly. Most Mechanchim aren’t as callow as the podcasters would pretend, and many, many of them are special, caring people who dedicate themselves to their students to the very furthest extent of their abilities and heart.
Can we improve? Sure. Let's do it without bashing the good people doing their best, who are dealing with an an army of broken souls, using imperfect tools as best as they can.
הרחמן הוא ירחם על פליטת עמו ישראל
להחיות רוח שפלים ולהחיות לב נדכאים
מאן דבעי חיים
PS.
After some internal debate I decided to add this.
One of my children is struggling terribly now. This child had dealt with a traumatic experience, coupled with a difficult temperament, and other stuff. The school wasn’t a great fit, it was the best school for my child out of all the available options. Sometimes, in life, you just don’t have great choices….
Limaaseh, the school and teachers that this child was in didn’t help. Things went from bad to worse without intervention, and no one really understand what was happening until after things had gotten very bad. It’s sad and frustrating.
But although I know that it’s possible that different Mechanchim could maybe have made different choices, and could have helped, I still don’t blame the school. It’s hard to know when to sound the alarm bell and when not to, when to read deeply into warning signs and when to address them in a general way. I know a lot of people could point out how a teacher who deeply cared would have noticed. But some of them
did deeply care and
still didn’t notice enough. Maybe no one teacher saw the whole picture, and only hindsight is 20/20. Who really knows?
A lot parents in my situation would have been calling for blood, though. That would not help anyone, would not fix my child’s problems. Should I blame the school for not being different than they are? I think that would be unfair. And I saw genuine, deep pain and empathy on the faces of some of the teachers when they realized what was going on… (So I went and made a personal vow to do what I can to learn from the story as best as I can, with the people under my care, that’s something productive, I think.)
Sometimes terrible things happen, and well-meaning people can lose a chance to save someone. It stinks when that happens. They often never forgive themselves. It doesn’t mean that they are bad people.
Sometimes we don’t have any good choices, and we are stuck picking the best of the less-than-ideal options. Life is really hard sometimes.
ה׳ טוב ירחם עלינו, ועל כל נשברי לב…
)
