I appreciate everything that was written by both the Captain and Bright.
These lessons are so important, and they’re crucial for a healthy relationship with the Rebono Shel Olam. Very powerful, thank you! 

Just want to add in a comment that doesn’t really have much to do with the actual Hashkafic  issues. 
I personally also grew up in a home with a strong Litvish traditions, and went to a respected “old school” Yeshiva. I heard the same Shmoozin that’s you’re describing (including the negativity about “American pizza-fressers” )
Yet BH, somehow I never interpreted the messages I heard there in the way that you did. Through the kindness of Hashem, I was able to learn from my Rabbeim the message that there’s both Ahava and Yirah and even a healthy balance between them. I learned in yeshiva that Hashem loves us, wants us to be happy, and isn’t out to get us. Avinu Malkeinu on Rosh Hashana was in the context of “אם כבנים רחמנו כרחם אב על בנים “, and I always felt the promise of Hashems love more than I felt the fear of His discipline. And this is despite the fact that neither I or my Rabbeim or Yeshiva were Chassidish. In fact, I know a lot of “Litvishe Talmidei Chachomim” who daven with warmth and heartz, do Chessed, and actually aren’t cold fish, and belive there’s more to Yiddishkeit than learning and avoiding Gehenom. 

And I have also spoken with and know great people who were raised Chassidish who have unfortunately lived in abject terror of various Inyanim detailed in the Zohar Hakadosh to the extent that they weren’t able to live normally, who blamed the Chassidishe system for their problems. And I also know a lot of happy, well adjusted Chassidim who are filled with healthy Simchas Hachaim. 

My point is that traumatic negative and false impressions about Hashem and Yiddishkeit aren’t a product of the “Litvish system”, and the solution isn’t “chassidus”- it’s far more nuanced than that. Most people who develop a negative and harmful belief system do so out of a combination of many factors… 

I dont think anyone here was trying to insinuate that it is, but there’s a certain attitude out there that likes to blame the Yeshivos, so I just wanted to chime in with my two cents to protest it.
End rant. 

I feel better.

There are people, who regardless of religious affiliation, constantly criticize a certain child without showing him love, warmth and support. I am not pointing at specific people but just pointing out that there are people who act this way towards a specific child and this can sometimes be the cause for this type of misconception about Yiddishkeit. At other times, this misconception can come internally from the way we feel about ourselves and not from what others are telling us. There may be other reasons for this misconception like trauma and abuse. For those of us in chinuch or raising children it is important that we show love, warmth and support to all of our students and children. This can help the students and children properly understand Hashem. I don't work in chinuch, and discipline and love need the proper balance so take this with a grain of salt.

chaimoigen wrote on 30 May 2025 18:35:

Totally true. And it’s amazing how far the yeshiva world has come with regards to sensitivity to mental health and caring about the individual. Many of the issues people have can definitely be attributed to self perception. As we spoke about:) That being said it’s also important for rebbeim to understand that what r ploni said last generation may be harmful to some of the students in this dor.

Just wanna share a altehmirrers blik, as we are serious litvishe chevra who take learning very seriously, from my personal view point there is no problem bietzem with the hashkfa that we got......., and i agree fully with @cm, the only heora i would have is that the system works very well for healthy bochurim.

The problem is when there is a "sick" boy, and the deeper problem is identifying the "sick" boy, when a bochur is not healthy and for whatever reason didn't internilize the aleph beis of yiddishkeit (in his home, and in cheder), and doesn't feel that connection to hashem, then he is missing the solid foundation needed to be able to build further in the correct healthy way, think about it if a bochur is gezunt in his yiddishkeit and in his nefesh then when he hears about torah torah torah it will penetrate in a way that is real, and when he hears about yirah it will also be honestly real, bec. he already has the basics that hashem is our loving father and cares about us od ein shiur, it will be mitoich ahava......, but when the bochur is totally not gezunt than all he's hearing is that the only thing is yirah..., torah...., without it feeling real at all without being able to connect with it for real, and in my humble opinion there are too many such bochurim......, but yes as @cm brought out by the chassidishe velt there are issues as well...., bottom line is that we have to work on the basics, no jumping.

Kol tuv, and hatzlocha raba from the varmeh geshmokeh mir.

I’m positive that it’s not just the Bochum that are “sick”. There are many Bochurim that struggle with some form of anxiety, self esteem or apathy with regards to yideshkeit in some form. I am sure you didn’t mean it to sound this way, but I want to be clear. It’s not the bochur who is sick in the head and has to go find help. Every person has to go help themselves, this is true, but the oness is on the teacher to teach in a way the student will accept or at least in a way that will “do no harm”. 
I want to bring out my point with two stories one from this generation and one from the last. In Shanghai when the mir was there there was a student who unfortunately passed away. R chatzkel gave a fiery shmuezz berating the Olam for not caring about their dead friend, but caring more about the fact that that they couldn’t wear shoes. This generation anyone who gave a talk like that should be arrested. When you have traumatized students who just lost their friend to scream at them is tantamount to psychological murder. Yet that was a different generation and for them that helped them grow, and it was something that a great man and a sensitive man such as r chatzkel very was OK with doing. Last generation was extremely tough and resilient. What they achieved with their unwavering strength is the reason we have the flourishing of klal yisroel we merit in this generation.
The second story happened to me personally. I was personally by a talk where a respected mechanech got up and started screaming about how if you are a Baal habus you have no hope. Never mind that among those who were listening were bachurim who would in all likelihood end up working. This person took a message from the previous generation extolling the virtues of learning full-time to an America that did not respect Torah and abused it to give over a talk that probably caused some in the crowd who went to work to not be able to respect themselves. These are both extreme examples and they’re not what’s happening usually. I just wanted to bring out what I am talking about and to show that this is not just a fringe thing that affects the most emotionally sick in our society. Anyone without a rock hard skin can be really hurt. This is not the point that I came to bring out with my original post at all. But once it came up, I felt obligated to bring out this point if it could be helpful to the amazing teachers of the next generation. Thanks for listening.

My 2 cents:
Chinuch is a responsibility shared by parents and mosdos.
When both are somewhat healthy - decent chances of thriving.
When one (especially the home) is very unhealthy, there are very slim chances the other can pick up the slack.

@bright im so happy you found what you needed to be able to connect to Hashem. It is literally the most important thing in the life of a Yid. It is an all encompassing journey that even the best therapy or the best Rebbi alone cannot entirely address.

I was zoche to grow up in a home with such twisted messages about Hashem, Torah, the world and life, that I knew I had to find something else. Years later, it seems that for me, emotional growth and connection with Hashem are intertwined. Even if I have the correct messages in my head, the darkness still simmers within, awaiting the integration of what I have learned.
As we approach Shavuos, we have the opportunity to ask Hashem for the clarity we need to face and grow through the challenges He sends us this year. May Hashem help me and all of us trust His process and become close to him through it.

So beautiful. And so true. Every persons journey of truth brings its own unique light into the world. Can you share some of the your insights with us?

Just read your opening post...
Wow wow wow so real thank you for sharing such deep feelings really hit deep down

Two cents.
I have what to say on the topic.
I really held back and deleted would be posts. 
I said - who cares about my two cents? (Nowadays it has been revealed that we actually lose money from pennies anyways...)
So instead I fished into my pockets and took out another two cents. 
Which maybe someone will find useful. 
Not commenting on the pros or cons of the system. 
I think that such a discussion is only helpful for those that are actually going to make real changes that work (regarding if the cons are legit) .
I think what's relevant for the individual is that nothing is random. 
The system ain't random.
His upbringing ain't random.
His parents ain't random.
His wife ain't random.
His pain ain't random.
You get the drift.
Fellows got two choices.
Victim land and mope.
Or realize that Hashem put me specifically in this (lets say dysfunctional or painful) situation because here is where I can grow best.
Every bullet, pain, situation is targeted from the one above. The best coach we have. To make us the true version of ourselves.
And we have the power and opportunity to transcend our pain and grow. 
This aint easy.
This can be hard.
We are here to become champs.
Maybe lots of us (me at times) dont wanna.
It's as if Hashem says no go son, Im not giving in to you and leaving you to be a wimp.
Your a champ!
You deserve the challenge.
Get in the ring and fight!
...And truly grow.
There is a gorgeous letter from the past Lubavitcher Rebbe where he writes a principle expressed by others but he emphasizes a powerful point. If your going through a struggle and you think you cant handle it (Aside from that Hashem doesn't give you challenges you can't handle) it's Hashem's way of hinting to you to look deeper within yourself. You dont know yourself well enough and you are on the way to discovering certain reservoirs of strength you never knew you had. I think that angle is a big chizzuk. It's not just a גזירת הכתוב that - "I must be wrong, I could handle it" - it's a positive journey of self discovery where you are going to discover the greatness of self you were never aware of.
This applies to all struggles in life. 
I say time to stop gripping about the system and any pain its caused - (although for cathartic venting purposes it could be useful with a good friend)
Time to start realizing we are bigger than any problem or challenge that has come our way.
We just dont know it yet. 
Then again, maybe some on this site already do.
Love y'all
Trueme
P.S. I didn't mean to offend anyone going through a challenge and in pain, I just think the above is worth pondering.
If someone finds the post insensitive, my apologies.

Thank you so much for writing this; I have been feeling similarly, and reading this was really helpful. It really helps when someone else writes out your experience so clearly. I know G-d exists, and that he commandment me in his mitzvot. I even know intellectually that he loves me, but it is often so hard to really feel that. I just feel so awful whenever I fall, but the fact I know I will feel awful later doesn't stop me. I don't know how to make things better, but I pray that all of us can grow in our ahavat Hashem.

Hi trueme, thank you for your post. You are right theoretically, but I believe some compassion is in order. We could say the same thing, theoretically to one who went through the holocaust. These are your circumstances, Hashem put you here stop getting angry at the Germans. Anyone who is bashing the system needs compassion, not mussar.That being said, my intent was never to bash the system, rather to point out an area there is no system in.

bright wrote on 08 Jun 2025 13:44:

What I believe trueme is saying, and is understandably really hard to hear, is that there is a system.

Hashem's system.

And while things were and may still be painful, hurting and dark, and it feels as though we have been let down by those who we trusted, this is all part of Hashem's plan for us to grow into the light-filled, happy, successful neshamas we have the potential to be.

I think that while the importance of this point cannot be understated, there is a great need for trust between the two parties in the conversation for the message to be received at all, let alone well and effectively.

As can be seen from bright's post he did grow from his situation. The point he was making was the pain and confusion he had to go through that caused him to grow. That pain and confusion is very real and philosophical reasoning doesn't take it away. In order to heal from the pain and confusion, all that is needed from us is validation; that we understand and feel his pain. So yes, we do feel your pain and it hurts that you had to undergo such difficult circumstances for so long until you were able to see the light. Your message is very true and you have the torch in your hands to guide others going through similar circumstances.

There was an article in Mishpacha this week of a boy who all his parents told him was how he wasn't leading up to their expectations and they never showed him warmth and encouragement. The boy ended up with depression and anxiety, went OTD and eventually after he was in rehab his parents learned to act properly. Today he is frum and he is a therapist helping others in his community.

This obviously isn't your story but it has the similarity of things going wrong when Judaism looks like something very demanding without the component of a loving Father. The story in Mishpacha is the story in one way or another of thousands of children who went OTD. I think the system changed somewhat in recent years but we still have lots of children going OTD so it seems like we aren't out of the woods yet.

What you wrote can be an eye opener for parents and teachers as to how they should be relating to their children and students and it can help them check whether they are relaying the proper messages.